More Boat 1

I am wondering if anyone has a theory as to why after boat 3 was lowered, the crowd moved aft towards 9 instead of a few feet forward to boat 1. Was boat one not being readied for lowering? Did an officer specifically direct passengers aft towards boat 9? Were most of the passengers in the vicinity taken off in boats 7,5, and 3? Since Murdoch was in charge of lowering boat 1 ( with Lowe as an assistant ) who was assisting the passengers in boat 9, before Murdoch finished with boat 1 and assisted with 9?
 
Michael,

I may not be the most expert person to address this but as it hinges closely on my research I have to say my bit here.

I don't believe Murdoch gave an order to the crowd to go aft. I actually don't think there was much of a crowd there after boats 7, 5, and 3 had gone off. If you check the number of first class people who left in boats 9, 11, 13, 15 there are only a few actually. So if there WERE a lot of people on deck after 3 put off they must have crossed through the foyer to the portside rather than down the deck to 9 where I believe there was a barrier, wasn't there dividing first from second class.

But actually if the estimates are correct as to who went in what boat, most of the first class passengers who were saved were already off the ship by the time boats 8 and 1 left at roughly 1:10-1:15 AM.

I just think the people who were left on the boat deck were those who had chosen not to go in 3 and were perhaps already making their way aft, thinking perhaps 1 would not be used as it was such a small craft.

I don't know if you are making an inference here that boat 1 was being reserved for the Duff-Gordons. But I know that this is a theory that was brought up at the time. And so just in case this is in people's mind now I would like to say that I think that that is unfounded. It would not only cast grave reflections on the Duff-Gordons but would also draw into question Murdoch's integrity. I truly believe what happened in connection with boat 1 was a series of mishaps and bad luck on the part of everyone. Even if the Duff-Gordons had put in a plea for preferential treatment, which I emphatically do not believe, still Ismay or Capt. Smith or Murdoch were of too high a character in my opinion to be making deals with passengers for a means of private escape. It just doesn't make since that with all that was going on that night that anyone would have had the time or desire to be putting dubious plans into action.

No one in boat 1 ever testified that Murdoch gave an order for people to head aft and no testimony has ever borne out why the deck was deserted at that point at that time. It seems curious that it happened that way but not necessarily suspicious. I just think Mme. Aubart, Miss Rosenbaum, Dr. Dodge and other first class folks who left in the aft boats headed that way of their own accord and by the time boat 1 was readied they were gone already or at least too far away to hear Murdoch when he called out for more people. As you may know Murdoch's decision to let the boat off with so few people came under scrutiny by Mersey who intimated in his questions at the Inquiry that Murdoch ought to have gone to get others to go in boat 1 but I really think he made a reasonable call based on his understanding that the ship was sinking fast and there was little time left. It is certainly an unfortunate decision in retrospect for, although Murdoch lost his life and we must remember that is surely the ultimate sacrifice, the Duff-Gordons were left to take the brunt of the criticism for his decision which, after the stress of the emergency was over , looked like a mistake. I don't think it was a mistake. He made a decision based on conditions he was fearing might worsen and felt it was the best call to make under those conditions. I have great sympathy for Murdoch and the Duff-Gordons equally in this matter. They none of them really ever escaped the Titanic did they?
 
Hi Randy:
No, I wasn't infering that the boat was reserved for Cosmo and Lucile. I think that is a myth started by their detractors.
I just wanted to see some opinions on how boat 1 was overlooked.
I have my own opinion which is similar to yours, but I wanted to see if anyone else had any theories.
 
Mike,

It is interesting too isn't it that some of the people left on deck that ended up in the aft boats were people like Edith Rosenbaum-Russell who may have been under Ismay's wing and Ninette Aubart who was Guggenheim's mistress. These people may have been wanting to keep their distance from other passengers which may account for the fact that they hung rather reluctantly back from the rest when the boats were loading on the first class deck. I know all these people weren't leading secret lives but it surely makes sense in Aubart's case that she wanted to remain as unobserved as possible.

Randy
 
One thing I did want to point out was that there was a small crowd of people when 3 was leaving. Among them were Thornton Davidson, Charles Hays, Washington Roebling, and Howard Case.
But there is that point, about certain people kind of keeping in the shadows. It is a shame, Ninette Aubert is still an elusive figure.
It does make me wonder on how late 1 was loaded.
There is a comment from Henry Harper who said 3 was part way ( 15 or twenty feet )down the side of the ship, when a second class man asked if he could shimmy down the ropes. Which he did and the lowering commenced.
I wonder why he wouldn't wait for 1 where there was practically no one in the vicinity.
 
Mike,

As I've just mentioned in a post to Michael Findlay, and as I have made the point before in an old thread, I think boat 1 left later than the accepted time of 1:10. I'm thinking closer to 1:20 because of the boat's getting caught up in the guy wire on its way down, which people tend to not take into account. I think #1 may have been ready to launch at 1:10 but didn't actually clear the ship til some minutes after. Also - and I don't mean to sound like the proverbial broken record - to me the fact of #1's getting stuck indicates a good list to port, something that is not believed to have happened til 1:20 or so. So that's another reason I think it left later. Lord Mersey's personal guess was 1:15 though the official report puts the time of departure at 1:10. To add to the confusion as to times for #1 Lucy Duff-Gordon said in an interview that Cosmo looked at his watch as their boat set off and it read 12:15. This couldn't be. Was Cosmo's watch off by an hour for some reason? Who knows?

Randy
 
Actually I answered your question in another post, but will do so here for the other readers.
There was about a 3 hour difference from where the Titanic was sinking to her last port of call.
So what was 1:15 on Titanic was about 10:15 on land.
And we've seen by the bodies recovered that a portion of them had watches that were definitely not at 2:00.
I do agree with you that 1 left later than the accepted time.
And I have to wonder how long did it take for them to hitch C to the davits? As I think C left a little later than originally thought.
 
This is an interesting thread guys and I had totally missed until tonight. Thanks for the interesting chat.

The time setttings at sea or anytime while one is on travel can be a pain. Perhaps Duff Gordon did not set his watch at the last time change and it was closer to 1:15.

But you gents continue...I wish to see how this continues.
Maureen.
 
I have always found Boat no 1 quite interesting. How it could possibly leave with only 12 people, of which only 5 were passengers, especially when it had a capacity of 40!

It left at 1.10, apperently, so there was plenty of time for more people to be mustered together to get into the boat.

Quite honestly, the No 1 passengers were just lucky. They saw an empty boat and hopped in it. It was, in my opinion the fault of the crew for lowering it too early. They should have waited for more people to fill it up.

nathan
 
I have over the short time I've been on ET said my peace more often than is warranted over the incident of boat 1.

I really ought not to reprise my arguments for fear of yet again boring or even alienating my friends here but, against my better judgement, I will take the risk and hope they will excuse me.

Though I agree it would have been great had others been collected by the crew to go in boat 1, I do not want to be too censorious of Officer Murdoch. In light of the ultimate price this fine brave man paid that night, I cannot permit myself to disrespect his memory by making speculations that might be misconstrued. But it is not only for discretion's sake - for I truly do feel this man was a hero and while in retrospect it can be reasonably contended that boat 1's leaving with less than its full capacity was ill-advised, I strongly believe Murdoch did as he felt was best at that time. I believe Murdoch and Lowe and others who were assisting in the evacuation at this point (and Inger and Ilya can speak to this better than I) were more aware than many people of the Titanic's increasingly grave condition and would therefore have been very anxious to get all the boats away. They were, in my opinion, in a hurry (and I do not mean haste necessarily) to get the aft boats down which is what they proceeded to do once #1 was cast off.

As to the odd situation of the boat deck's being deserted at this juncture, this has been examined before at length. And there seems no doubt that this was indeed a fact. However I do not believe there were a great many first class people left on the forward starboard deck after #3 was cleared anyway. Most had already gone off in #7, 5 & 3. Those that were still there after #3 went off may have not felt the emergency boat or collapsibles would be utilized (the collapsibles, for instance, were probably not even uncovered yet) and so either crossed through the foyer to port or went aft to the second class deck. If you check the number of first class people who left in aft starboard boats there are only a handful. Mme. Aubart and maid (#9), Miss Rosenbaum (#11), Dr. Dodge (#15), and a few others whose names escape me were among them.

It was in my estimation an unfortunate fluke that only the Duff Gordons, Miss Francatelli, Mr. Stengel, and Mr. Salomon were at hand to go in boat #1 when it was ready.

By the time #1 was slung off - at approximately 1:10-1:15 AM - the ship was settling well at the head and was heeling slightly to port, the latter I think partly accounting for #1's getting hung up as it was lowered. We know from Lookout George Symons, placed in charge of #1 by Murdoch, that as they were cutting loose he looked forward and saw what must have been a frightening sight - that of the bow almost submerged, the water lapping at the ship's nameplate just under C-Deck.

We also know (and again I defer to the experts on this point) that somewhere around this time, Murdoch said to steward Hardy as they were walking along the deck to the next boat that "I believe she's gone." If this was his frame of mind at the time boat 1 cast off - and I imagine it was - I think that that is what prompted his decision to let it go without its full complement.

Just an added word here about the fact that #1 had only 12 aboard rather than 40. #1 undeniably held the least number of people but I do think it would only be fair to note that other boats left less than half-filled as well - #7 with only 28 aboard though it could hold 65. #2 I believe left with only 18-20. In #7's case, being a larger craft, it had MORE empty spaces than 1! About 37 empty spaces. I think #6 and 8 also left with only a few on board.

I mention this because for some reason beyond me writers love to insinuate that the Duff Gordons were a) somewhow responsible for the fact that #1 left so underfilled and b) that it was alone in not returning to the wreck site to pick up swimmers.

Even on the Dalbeattie site, so hotly contested of late here on ET, a researcher who should know better recounts these absurdities and even goes to the extent to accuse the Duff Gordons of behaving "disgracefully." I think that's going too far.

No one ever singles out for criticism anyone else in any other boat for a) being responsibile for their boat's having less occupants than it should and b) not going back to rescue others. The boats, as a group are critized for failing to go back, but whenever specific names are brought up it's always the Duff Gordons. They've become the convenient scapegoat for the lifeboats' failures that night and that is really unfair.

Well, as usual I've said much more than I need to!!!
 
Hey Randy,

I was meaning no disrespect to the Duff Gordons, I think they were lucky and did what they had to do. I would do it no different.

Yet you point out that Murdoch knew that the ship was in a dire situation, and that many would die. Surely then, he should have been trying to fill up the life boats, any boats, and not let them leave half full. If he knew there were not enough boats, and that the ship was soon to sink, why create more unnecessary death, by launching half full boats.

As you said Murdoch was a hero, he saved many lives and gave up his own, but I feel he could have used much better judgement and not let a boat leave one quarter full. Half full lends and air of haste, a quarter full lends an air of desperation, when he should have been keeping a cool head for everyones sake.

nathan
 
Randy,

Well said. And I believe that at times when newcomers come by or some who have forgotten and in pseculation say somwthing that has been addressed a million times before, it takes great patience and kindness to address yet again. You always come out a winner kind Sir!

I do wish to correct one thing, Hitchens (aka hichens) is an individual that would have had either "Selfish Cad" or "Coward" tattooed on his forehead had Molly Brown and Company had a tattoo maker with her. Don;t think he ever was let alone about his boat not being full and refusing to go back for folks.

But it is so sad that many of the men felt so bad and looked for that absolution that never came for them...but Hitchens was a member of the crew and DG was not and yet because of DG's level in society I think you hear more negative about him. That is just sad.

Nathan,
I am not sure, but I believe that you are thinking like an amusement park ride line at a place like Disney World or something like that.

Take your high school math and figure out the distance between the side of the ship and the hanging life boats from the beginnng of the loaading process and compare it to the lower position to the water but the same amount of time to fill, plus having to unloose the tied down collapsibles and uncovering boats.

Now add to it that each and every time a boat is launched a set of crew must be launched with it. There were very few men left to man these boats. But it came to a point that it was more important to get a boat launched (even empty if necessary) in order to get if off the Titanic and inot the water safely. This would of course assume that folks would gain access through a swim in the water to the lifeboats.

I truly believe that historically that most crew members new the lifeboats of their time period would buckle or tip if over filled. But boat number one had few people in it due to the time figured that was left to get all boats launched into the water. Murdoch did the best with what time he had left and was cool headed. I think that any officer in his place would have done the same thing.

Maureen.
 
Nathan,

I really do see your point. Please know I do. I feel awfully bad that boat 1 left when it did without being full up. I'm sure Murdoch did not want to let it go but felt time was running out and that is why he thought he'd better get it afloat.

He did tell the crew to stand by and return if called. Or at least I believe he did. Nobody ever did call or else the crew disregarded this last bit of Murdoch's instructions and just rowed off further. I strongly suspect the latter. By the way, I do not believe #1 boat was anywhere near 1000 yards away as the Duff Gordons claimed (they were in a desperate situation, mind you, and their attorneys had their hands full with what we'd now call damage control!!). I believe they were closer to 200 yards away when the end came for Titanic. Still they were all in such fear. It's unfortunate more wasn't done but it's hard to judge the DGs or anyone else in the other boats which didn't go back. It's one of those things we can't understand because we weren't there in those circumstancres.

Maureen love,

I know the women in boat 6 wanted to go back, bless their hearts. They must have been in such anguish, those poor ladies. And dear Molly - what a spirit that "ole gal" had. I don't judge them in the least. And I feel as you do about Hitchens. I think he was a hell of a lousy excuse for a seaman and, though I understand the guy must have been scared and well out of his element in a boat with such feisty American ladies, the things he is reported to have said are so insensitive I'm suprised Molly didn't follow through on her threat and throw the wimp over the side!!! He is an all-round bad sort in my book. I say this in confidence that there is no group of Hitchens supporters out there!!! Even if there were I wouldn't be much swayed in my opinion of him.

All my best,

Randy
 
Hey Randy,

I do think that what you say sounds about as close as you can get to right. I think having almost ninty years of hindsight, is something that affects me greatly.

I'd like to think that there was more Murdoch could have done, but then my emotions do sometimes overrule my head, and 1500 dead is a lot of people.

I do enjoy the banters we have though,

nathan
 
Hitchins, however, did not have the poor taste to offer anyone money for their kit bags while 1,500 were screaming in the ice-cold water, nor did he have the bad taste of taking a group photograph with his lifeboat mates.
 
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