Mrs Allison Mrs Straus Ms Evans and Ms Isham

[Grant Woollacott]

I am not sure if this has been brought up before or if its a redundant topic. But i would like to know what others think about the fates of the 4 first class women to perish. My personal opinion is Mrs. Allison was left in an impossible situation by Alice Cleaver. Being a mere 25 with a little girl at her side and a missing baby boy broke down and with a mothers love spent her vital survival time looking for her son until it was too late. Mrs. Strauss fate seems fairly clear as to my knowledge no evidence has come up to go against her not wanting to leave Isador. I see no reason to not believe Edith Evans gave up her seat to Mrs. Brown with children at home. Ms. Isham is covered by a vail of mystery but she could have possibly being heavier woman suffered heart problems and passed away on Titanic and no one made a note of it or maybe they did but the records went down with the ship. These are my opinions/ best guesses. I am interested in hearing others.

Grant Woollacott

 

[João Carlos Pereira Martins]

Hey Grant!

All fates of this four women have a mystery shadow, but it's this what make them interesting. First of all, I would like to refer the actions of Bessie Allison. Many blame her for not putting Lorraine on a boat, provoking her unnecessary death. Well, she didn't know if her son was well and as any passengers she probably didn't trust the safety of lifeboats. Who could assure her that the little boats would resist and save her daughter's life? Personally,I think she was afraid to lose her daughter and then not find her son either.

Regarding Mrs. Strauss, I'm sure she had plenty of opportunities to enter a lifeboat safely and there's no reason not to trust the testimonies. What else could have it been? I don't imagine a gentlemen like Mr. Strauss refusing her wife to board a boat. Of course both of them could have been saved if they had gone to the right side of the ship but the officers policies weren't so clear that night.

I'm not very familiar with Miss Evans and Miss Isham fates, but your guesses seem quite plausible.

Kind regards,
João

 

[Grant Woollacott]

Thank you Joao,
I am glad to find someone who dose not go along with the thought "Bessie Allison didn't want to leave her husband". Personally i Believe that that opinion is hogwash and that Bessie and Loraine died due to the incompetence of their
Employee Alice Cleaver.

Grant Woollacott

 

[João Carlos Pereira Martins]

You're welcome, Grant. I've always loved the intriguing Allison story.

Best wishes,
João

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Personally i Believe that that opinion is hogwash and that Bessie and Loraine died due to the incompetence of their
Employee Alice Cleaver.<<

May I ask what that incompetance was? Alice Cleaver was the one person who read the situation correctly and took the action which not only saved her life but Trevor's as well. If you read https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/3/ you'll see that both Mrs. Allison and Lorraine were both put in a lifeboat, but Mrs. Allison made the decision to leave the boat to look for her son. While this is certainly understandable, one has to wonder why she didn't leave her daughter in the care of one of the boat's passengers or crew. She could have but she didn't.

If you read https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/biography/74/ you'll note that Miss Cleaver was hired specifically to take care of Trevor and that's exactly what she did.

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Grant, this topic is not redundant, as there is always the possibility of new evidence or interpretation coming to light. But to answer your first query - yes, there are existing threads where the fate of these ladies has been debated at length, and it would be best, I think, to continue the discussion there. The easiest way to find these threads would be to enter the ladies' names as keywords in the 'search' link on the menu bar at the bottom of this page.

 

[Grant Woollacott]

Michael -

The incompetence i was speaking about is her lack of care for Trevor. I would think that part of his well being is having his loving parents alive and had she said anything to Bessie at the least Bessie being a women would have possibly been saved. I have read the bios you set up a link for many times over and my opinion remains the same. There was no reason why she could not have told them were she was going and had she at least Bessie would have been saved. Bessie left the refuge of a lifeboat because she did not know where her son was and that is the incompetence of Alice Cleaver right there.

Grant Woollacott

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>The incompetence i was speaking about is her lack of care for Trevor. <<

Then you're going to have one helluva time making the case since she saved Trevor's life. She had no control whatever over what his parents chose to do, and it's a demonsterable fact that Mrs. Allison made a decision which not only got her killed, but her daughter as well.

>>There was no reason why she could not have told them were she was going and had she at least Bessie would have been saved.<<

And maybe she did (Did they listen? Would they have listened?) and maybe she didn't. We weren't there so this isn't really knowable as a non-debatable fact.

>>Bessie left the refuge of a lifeboat because she did not know where her son was and that is the incompetence of Alice Cleaver right there. <<

Weeeeeellllll...no...it's not.

Miss Cleaver may or may not have told the Allisons what she was up to, but in the end, it was Mrs. Allison who made a councious and deliberate decision to leave the lifeboat and take her daughter with her. Mrs. Allison made that call, not Alice. She could have, as I pointed out, have left Lorraine under the care of another. She didn't do that and they paid for that mistake with their lives.

 

[Grant Woollacott]

>>Weeeeeellllll...no...it's not. << ?????

There is a huge contradiction to this whole story. Alice must not have told them because what other reason was there for Bessie to not get into a boat. The only reason Bessie and Loraine perished is the fact Bessie did not know where her son was. She most likely did not put Loraine in the care of another for the fear of losing another child. Even if it is indirect Alice Cleaver caused the Death of Bessie and Loraine.

Grant Woollacott

 

[Lester Mitcham]

>>but in the end, it was Mrs. Allison who made a councious and deliberate decision to leave the lifeboat and take her daughter with her.<<

Exactly what is the evidence that Bess was ever in a lifeboat? Surely not what Major Peuchen is reported to have said? He is also reported as having seen her "....... quickly hustled into one of the collapsible life-boats, and when last seen by Major Peuchen she was toppling out of the half-swamped boat." - That was seen from boat 6?

 

[Grant Woollacott]

Thank you Lester for questioning that quote as Bessie Allison made no concious or deliberate decision.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Alice must not have told them because what other reason was there for Bessie to not get into a boat. <<

"Must not" is a mighty big stretch. We're not privy to every conversation that took place. Alice Cleaver may have been dead silent or shouting it from the rooftops for all any of us know. We weren't there so we have to work from the evidence offered by those who were. Major Peuchen may well not be the most reliable witness for this, but if somebody has somebody better, feel free to present it. (We might learn something.)

>>The only reason Bessie and Loraine perished is the fact Bessie did not know where her son was.<<

She perished because she didn't get into the boat or stay in if she was put in the boat. The opportunity was there. Her reasons for staying behind would be entirely understandable, but that doesn't mean she had to take her daughter along for the ride, and it doesn't point to incompetence on Alice Cleaver's part. You may be able to make the case for negligence, but not incompetence.

 

[Grant Woollacott]

Thank you Michael,

Severe negligence is really better wording for where i stand on this.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Thank you Michael,<<

Not so fast. I said that "You may be able to make the case for negligence..." I did not say that you actually did, and asserting severe negligence is a whole 'nother smoke. You would first have to establish by the evidence exactly Miss Cleaver's legal and moral obligations were before you could even start in that direction. You would also have to establish who knew what and when, as well as who said what and when. You're going to have a real problem with that since the only first hand witnesses to that never made it to the other side of the Atlantic alive.

If I seem to be a stick in the mud on this, it's because Miss Cleaver has been everybody's scapegoat of choice in recent times when it comes to the Allison family's demise, with all kinds of sinister motives attributed to her, and it's really getting old. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm evidence to back up your sweeping conclusion, and for all any of us know, it could have been nothing more sinister then plain old miscommunication at work. That sort of thing happens all too often in a crisis.

 

[Grant Woollacott]

Michael:
I was not thanking you for saying that i made case for negligence. I was saying thank you for coming up with a far better word that Communicates what i truly meant. Negligence communicates what i think far better than the word incompetence. Yes Alice Cleaver has been a scape goat especially after a child killer was found to have the same name and lived at the same time. Its clear Nursemaid Alice Cleaver was not a child killer and yes that accusation is getting very old. But that dose not mean Alice Cleaver was not severely negligent and caused the death of Bessie and Loraine.

Grant Woollacott

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>But that dose not mean Alice Cleaver was not severely negligent and caused the death of Bessie and Loraine. <<

It doesn't mean that she was either. If you're going to attempt to make the case, you'll have to do far better then what you've managed here. All we have is speculation and no real knowladge of what happened between the people involved.

 

[John Knight]

Grant, firstly, where is your proof that Mrs. Allison got out of any boat because she did not know where her son Trevor was? Secondly, you seem bent on blaming Alice Cleaver for the death of Bess and her daughter Loraine. Have you not considered that Bess did not stay in the lifeboat for other reasons? For example the possibility that she did not want to leave her husband? Can you truly imagine the utter confusion and fear felt by many if not all that night? Why is not conceivable that Bess Allison just decided she could not be without her beloved husband, Hudson? You are viewing this through the eyes of somebody who was not there, somebody who has had time to think, lots of time, Bess did not. I do not blame her for anything and likewise I do not blame Alice Cleaver either, I have no reason to doubt her honesty, I could doubt it, but have never seen or read evidence that makes me do so. You have, I can not recall in which thread, already accused Bess Allison of being 'hysterical' for which you had no proof, indeed evidence we do have rather says otherwise, and you also accused Alice of being a murderer, again you were proved wrong, very wrong. Unless you can provide us all with, at least, verifiable evidence that anyone was negligent in this matter then I suggest you leave it.
Regards.

 

[Grant Woollacott]

John:
>>Grant, firstly, where is your proof that Mrs. Allison got out of any boat because she did not know where her son Trevor was?<<

That is stated as the truth by many reputable sources (Books/Historians.

>>you seem bent on blaming Alice Cleaver for the death of Bess and her daughter Loraine.<<

Many people seem bent on clearing her name.


>>I can not recall in which thread, already accused Bess Allison of being 'hysterical' for which you had no proof<<

I have no idea what you are referring to but if you could direct me to the thread i will explain myself.

About me claiming Alice Cleaver was a child killer. At that point i was reading a book that still claimed Alice Mary Cleaver and Alice Catherine Cleaver were the same person.
What proof do you have that Alice Cleaver was honest? I am not saying this in a way like no proof exists. I have read that Alice Cleavers story change at least 12 times post Titanic sinking.

Grant Woollacott

 

[Grant Woollacott]

Shortly after posting i went and found a passage in "A Night to Remember" that shed light on the situation. It says that the Allisons stood smiling on the promenade deck. Bessie clutching Loraine in one hand and Hudson in the other. When Officer Lightoller asked if he may place Loraine in a boat Bessie said and i quote from the book.

"Not on your life. We started together and, if need be, We'll finish together."

Had she known Trevor was off safe in a boat under Nurse Cleavers care she would not have said this. Because she most likely said this in a way like she would rather die than leave one behind. Meaning Alice Cleaver must not have told Bess and Hudson.

 

[John Knight]

>>John:
>>Grant, firstly, where is your proof that Mrs. Allison got out of any boat because she did not know where her son Trevor was?<<<<

>>That is stated as the truth by many reputable sources (Books/Historians<<

It does not appear in testimonies. I would hope you learned to be more careful about what you take to be 'truth' when you maligned both Bess Allison and Alice Cleaver, because of what you 'read in books'.

>>>>you seem bent on blaming Alice Cleaver for the death of Bess and her daughter Loraine.<<<<

>>Many people seem bent on clearing her name.<<

What sort of statement is that?! At least I did not accuse her of murder, vehemently so, and from what I have read, her story is pretty consistent, no less so than anyone can expect after such an ordeal, unless of course you only wish to see wrong doing. I know, you could say I am trying to see only right. No, I am after the truth, regardless and I will not make things 'fit' to suit either side of the debate.

>>>>I can not recall in which thread, already accused Bess Allison of being 'hysterical' for which you had no proof<<<<

>>I have no idea what you are referring to but if you could direct me to the thread i will explain myself.<<

This from the thread 'Nurse Alice Cleaver - personal opinions ?'

"...if alice cleaver had told the allisons why did she spend the night running up to people and showing them the portrait and asking if they had seen him. also if alice had told bessie why was bessie last seen holding lorraine, hugging hudson and screaming and whailing looking at the portrait if she knew trevor was safe this would not have happend."

Ok, so maybe you did not use the word hysterical, but "screaming and whailing" are close enough.

>>What proof do you have that Alice Cleaver was honest? I am not saying this in a way like no proof exists. I have read that Alice Cleavers story change at least 12 times post Titanic sinking.<<

Because I have no desire to condemn anyone, no matter who they are, on hear say and lies. I have neither seen, read nor heard anything that tells me Alice was a liar. My thoughts regarding her 'story' have already been expressed.
Maybe I could ask why I should treat you as honest? My answer would be the same as the one regarding Alice Cleaver, I have seen, read nor heard anything to suggest otherwise about you. Maybe you could extend that courtesy to Miss Cleaver?

I am grateful though that you no longer seem to be making Bess out to be, effectively, hysterical that night.
Regards.