Mrs Helen Churchill Candee

P

Pat Cook

Member
Shel! I wuz ROBBED! I was wearing this SAME suit last Saturday night! Of course, it looked much more dashing on me.
 
Peter Kyhl

Peter Kyhl

Member
She had a cabin forward on A-deck. I guess the number isn't known. She is not on the cave list.

Acquired by Walter Lord in 1986 – given by the Candee family shortly before ‘ The Night Lives On’ was published.

I looked about my cabin and there stole over me the comfort given by a huge cabin elegantly fitted. And I too, fell into the folly of braggadocio. I went into dinner with chin up and a regal air of self-satisfaction. I had been given a cabin on the deck with the lounge [A deck]. Convenient and luxurious it was.

 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
She had a cabin forward on A-deck. I guess the number isn't known. She is not on the cave list.
I have always been surprised by that, considering that she was a society lady and made many friends on board. Even here on ET, Mrs Candee's cabin allocation is not speculated.

In On A Sea Of Glass, there is an account where Helen Candee called her steward soon after the collision to find out what the matter was and was not entirely reassured by his "nothing to worry about" report. Unfortunately, I had to leave that heavy book back in England because of luggage weight limitations when I came to India for the winter sojourn this time. I cannot remember if her cabin number and/or the steward's name is mentioned in that report. Perhaps someone else who has the book could check?

As for the Cave List, although the information there is very limited, I trust it because it is the only on-board cabin occupation information available. For example, the Spencer couple were assigned Cabin B78 in the original manifest but it looks like for some reason they asked the purser to move them the then empty B76, which is where the Cave List places them. That would fit in with B78 having been "officially" unoccupied but where Steward Etches tried to warn the unknown couple through their locked door.
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
For example, the Spencer couple were assigned Cabin B78 in the original manifest
I can't recall that there was any original White Star Line manifest outside of the passengers list found on Hebert Cave his recovered body. To which manifest do you refer?
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
I can't recall that there was any original White Star Line manifest outside of the passengers list found on Hebert Cave his recovered body. To which manifest do you refer?
Sorry, my bad. I was referring to this: Cabin Allocations here on ET but just realized that it was based on survivor memories and the cave List. The last time I saw it - which was over a year ago - the Spencers were designated as being in B-78 and the Cave List, available separately, had them in B-76. Now you can see that both have been considered as possible.

Might be inappropriate to continue this topic in a thread that belongs to Helen Churchill-Candee. A few years ago I think I started a thread about the mysterious occupants of B-78 as reported by Sam Etches. My belief is that the Spencer couple were in B-76 as per the cave list and B-78 was officially unoccupied but being used by an interloping couple for a nocturnal rendezvous. I have even formed a theory (and only that) to guess who that couple might have been but as I said, we are off topic here for that.
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
Sorry, my bad. I was referring to this: Cabin Allocations here on ET but just realized that it was based on survivor memories and the cave List. The last time I saw it - which was over a year ago - the Spencers were designated as being in B-78 and the Cave List, available separately, had them in B-76. Now you can see that both have been considered as possible.

Might be inappropriate to continue this topic in a thread that belongs to Helen Churchill-Candee. A few years ago I think I started a thread about the mysterious occupants of B-78 as reported by Sam Etches. My belief is that the Spencer couple were in B-76 as per the cave list and B-78 was officially unoccupied but being used by an interloping couple for a nocturnal rendezvous. I have even formed a theory (and only that) to guess who that couple might have been but as I said, we are off topic here for that.
First class bedroom steward Henry Etches confirmed that the couple in B-78 weren't the Spencers, he mentioned that the Spencers were at the next door of B-78 (in the Harland and Wolff bedroom B style with oak beds) which was of-course B-76 (in the Harland and Wolff bedroom A style). I personally believe that the occupants of B-78 were Edgar Joseph Meyer and his wife Leila Meyer.


Keep in mind that Daniel Klistorner wrote the article back in 2004, which was just 2 years after I was born by the way. I spoke to Mr. Klistorner a few times when I was part of a project from May 2021 to September 2021 and he told me that his article has a number of inaccuracies and changed opinions on the stateroom occupancy. Back then he believed that the Astor's were in C-17 and C-21 for example but now he believes they were in C-74 (in the Modern Dutch style with sycamore panelling and beds, which during a Titanic role-play was once occupied by my beloved ex-girlfriend) and C-76 (in the Harland and Wolff bedroom B style with oak beds).
 
Michael Hinz

Michael Hinz

Member
I read in another post that Helen Churchill Candee might also have occupied a cabin on the D-deck (maybe D-41). Another indication of this would be the price of 27 pounds. Isaac Frauenthal in D-40 paid a similair price. The “lounge” she speaks of in her report would then be the reception room. Of course, D-41 wasn't "huge" and "elegantly fitted" but maybe she’s got some things mixed up in her memory...
 
Michael Hinz

Michael Hinz

Member
Keep in mind that Daniel Klistorner wrote the article back in 2004, which was just 2 years after I was born by the way. I spoke to Mr. Klistorner a few times when I was part of a project from May 2021 to September 2021 and he told me that his article has a number of inaccuracies and changed opinions on the stateroom occupancy. Back then he believed that the Astor's were in C-17 and C-21 for example but now he believes they were in C-74 (in the Modern Dutch style with sycamore panelling and beds, which during a Titanic role-play was once occupied by my beloved ex-girlfriend) and C-76 (in the Harland and Wolff bedroom B style with oak beds).

That’s an interesting point. Do you remember what led Daniel to the conclusion that the Astors might have occupied C-74 and C-76?
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
I read in another post that Helen Churchill Candee might also have occupied a cabin on the D-deck (maybe D-41). Another indication of this would be the price of 27 pounds. Isaac Frauenthal in D-40 paid a similair price.
Hmm. Possible, of course but would a socialite and seasoned traveller like Mrs Candee have opted for a port-holeless cabin in the mid-section? I would have thought she would have liked one with a view, unless she was worried about her injured son and did not really care.
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
Morning Mr. Hinz, I am terribly sorry for my late response but I was sound asleep.
That’s an interesting point. Do you remember what led Daniel to the conclusion that the Astors might have occupied C-74 and C-76?
There are three things that led to the conclusion:
  • 1: The secretary of Colonel Astor who arranged all the bookings at the offices and traveling agents working for the White Star Line had a first class accommodation plan that circled C-74 and C-78 (the later of which is believed to be a mistake since the Minahan party occupied C-78).
  • 2: When the Astor’s travelled to Europe for their honeymoon on-board the Olympic they occupied the special staterooms C-73 (in the Louis XIV style) and C-75 (in the Late Georgian style) on the starboard side, these staterooms were the equivalent of C-75 and C-77 on the Titanic. Despite these special staterooms not being directly opposite of the equivalent of C-74 and C-76 (which were C-68 and C-70 in 1911 on-board the Olympic) it means they would perhaps take the special staterooms on C-deck in a high regard.
  • 3 Miss Ida Daisy Minahan claimed “the crying of a woman in the passageway awakened me” and although it is speculation it is likely she was the Wisconsin woman May Birkhead (a first class passenger on-board the Carpathia) referred to when she described that a woman from Wisonsin was awakened by Mrs Astor crying.

I hope this helps.


Yours sincerely,

Thomas
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
I read in another post that Helen Churchill Candee might also have occupied a cabin on the D-deck (maybe D-41). Another indication of this would be the price of 27 pounds. Isaac Frauenthal in D-40 paid a similair price. The “lounge” she speaks of in her report would then be the reception room. Of course, D-41 wasn't "huge" and "elegantly fitted" but maybe she’s got some things mixed up in her memory...
I personally believe the deck her stateroom was on is a debatable subject. In her account in the third person, known as "Sealed orders", she mentioned that after the collision she ascended one deck to reach the boat deck. However she also claimed that after meals and hearing the ship's "excellent orchestra," she "ran to my room so conveniently near for the daily rest that I call my life-saver." The quintet led by bandmaster Hartley played in the first class reception room on D-deck from 8 o'clock (20:00) to 9:15 (21:15).

She referred to her stateroom was on the same deck as the lounge as well, however it is possible that she confused the reception room for the lounge since some accounts refer to the first class lounge as the library.
 
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