Mystery ship candidates

Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
co
That's right, but that is not the point being made.
Birma was in contact with Californian about the time when Californian was crossing the ice heading southwestward. Evans told Cannon that Californian was 15 miles from the reported CQD position at that time, and Cannon told Evans that Birma was 22 miles away. Birma was 14 knot ship. Both allegedly heading for the same place when that exchange took place. Of course, that was Birma's claim as to how far away she was. About an hour later, when the pink funnel message was sent, Birma should have been only 8 miles from the CQD if she really was 22 miles away about an hour earlier. And Californian, at 13 knots, should have been really close to CQD position by that time even heading southward rather than SSW. Quite reasonable for Evans to ask if Birma could see a pink funneled vessel based on the information received from Birma. Californian had a pink funnel.
Start at the end and work backward, Sam.

As I see it - we have two questions to answer:
1. Why would Evans mention a 'pink funnel?
2. Why would Lord dig into Company files concerning the Almerian? which had a pink funnel).

In his evidence, Californian's 3/O Groves stated that he arrived on the bridge just before 6 am and saw two ships ahead - one on each bow. They were looking for Titanic, so Lord would have ordered Evans to call CQ.to try and identify them
Obviously, Birma answered. Evans was inquiring about ships in sight - hence the visual description.. e,g, "We have for masts and a pink funnel - can you see us?"
Burma's operator would need to consult his bridge on that one and would possibly come back with- "NO....we are 22 miles - SSW from the CQD position.
Evans would relay that to the bridge who would tell him to respond with. e.g. " can't be you we are seeing - we are 15 NNE of the CQD position."
All of which took place between 5-05 am EST and 5-30 am EST.

Californian passed between the two ships at 7-30 pm. Like Moore on the Mount Temple, Lord would have seen the funnel markings of the ship up against the west side of the barrier - the one first seen on his port bow. To suggest he thought it was Almerian is absurd.
However, you have illustrated that Almerian was less than 10 miles to the westward around that time. She too had a pink funnel and everyone on Californian was straining eyes in all directions.
If Lord saw her he would have made a mental note, or simply asked in the office if any other Leyland Line ship was in the area at the time.

I would be very careful about interpreting the Birma evidence.
For instance, in his original letter to the Company, Birma's Operator Cannon stated that the very first message from Titanic contained the expression 'sinking fast'. An expression similar to that was received in a message by Mount Temple timed 11-20 pm EST.
Bride blamed the Frankfurt for asking "what is the matter with you"., yet the Cannon letter said they used exactly the same terminology.

The same Cannon letter states that at that time Birma was 100 miles from the CQD position and would arrive at 6-30 pm At 14 knots that is a steaming time of 7 hrs 8 minutes. At 13 knots it is 7 hrs 42 minutes.
The PV of th Mount Temple shows that Mesaba reduce her distance by 20 miles in 1 hour 33 minutes... giving an average speed of 12.9 knots - say 13 knots. This means that it would have taken Birma 7 hours 42 minutes to cover the 100 miles (102) Separation distance, which in turn means that if the ETA was 6-30 am then the time of departure was 10-48 pm the previous evening- guess what! - the exact time registered on the PV of Mount Temple for Frankfurts unwanted question.
All of which suggests that Cannon was expressing time is terms of EST. If so, then Birma was due on the scene at or near to 8-20 am LMT on the morning of April 15.
However, according to her PV, the ETA was extended by another 30 minutes to 7-00 am, meaning her updated ETA was nearer to the time when Carpathia was leaving the scene. All of which almost fits with the sighting of her on the horizon by Moore at or near to 6-14 am EST that morning.
Incidentally; at 11-50 pm EST, Olympic heard Titanic talking to another vessel - what vessel would that have been?
It seems to me that the resurfaced pv of the Birma is a mixture of ship and New York time, and the other ship PVs cause confusion due to Marconi meddling.
 
Julian Atkins

Julian Atkins

Member
Of the Almerian, I am very content with Sam's section on it in his book. It was wrong of Captain Lord, after the British Inquiry, to implicate the Almerian of his own Line.

It was also wrong of the Leyland Line not to mention the Almerian as a possibility when it only reported to the Board of Trade the Antillian and The Californian. As the Almerian was closer than the Antillian! But both were still too far away to be of relevance as 'the mystery ship'.

As to Jim's 'suggestion', Captain Lord nor Evans could never have seen another 'pink funnelled' ship on the night of the 14th/15th or the morning of the 15th. No other Leyland Line ship was or could be visible, nor was near.

I agree with Sam that on the basis of the Baltic PV, Evans was asking the Birma 'Can you see us'. Evans was never interrogated about this at all. He could have been recalled. Further more, witnesses from the Birma could have been called.

What we can properly surmise is that a lot went on over the Marconi sets and those of the makers of other sets that was never properly recorded at the time. Record keeping of exchanges was lax in the extreme.

This is clear from Cottam making no entries in his PV from shortly before receiving the CQD, and the big gap in the Virginian's PV despite having 2 wireless operators.

Though currently missing for some 60 or so years if not more, Evans' PV from The Californian is probably lacking in lots of details that we can only piece together from other sources.

Cheers,
Julian
 
Julian Atkins

Julian Atkins

Member
I should perhaps also add to the above the evidence of Adams, the wireless officer on the Mesaba. He had a long list of ships he had sent his original and amended ice report to other ships over quite a long period on the 14th, and he gave evidence on oath to the British Inquiry and they had the original documents written by Adams.

Yet I can find no mention of the Mesaba warning to other vessels in their PVs. I do not myself doubt that Adams was telling the truth. But the lack of corroboration is I suggest the lax approach of other operators in recording the messages they received from the Mesaba. And more so, acting upon them as is clearly evident from Phillips in respect of Adams, and Bride's hash of testimony over the Antillian message from The Californian of ice bergs seen, and incidentally not also picking up the earlier message from the Parisian of what is regarded as the same bergs.

We do have ample evidence of other ships listening in to messages passing between other ships. The Baltic - Balfour. Bride on Titanic doing his accounts as he claimed. Durrant on the Mount Temple listening in on most stuff.
 
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Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

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We do have ample evidence of other ships listening in to messages passing between other ships. The Baltic - Balfour. Bride on Titanic doing his accounts as he claimed. Durrant on the Mount Temple listening in on most stuff.
Absolutely. It is also very clear that there were many back-and-forth communications between operators that simply were not put down in their PVs. Balfour talks of Californian and Birma taking up the airwaves with lots of unnecessary communications making it impossible for him to get through. Even in the case of operators that were more diligent in what they reported in their PVs, such Durrant, they too seemed to copy down messages on chits of paper which were later used to make up their PV. Perhaps that is why there was this apparent gap in Virginian's PV.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
I should perhaps also add to the above the evidence of Adams, the wireless officer on the Mesaba. He had a long list of ships he had sent his original and amended ice report to other ships over quite a long period on the 14th, and he gave evidence on oath to the British Inquiry and they had the original documents written by Adams.

Yet I can find no mention of the Mesaba warning to other vessels in their PVs. I do not myself doubt that Adams was telling the truth. But the lack of corroboration is I suggest the lax approach of other operators in recording the messages they received from the Mesaba. And more so, acting upon them as is clearly evident from Phillips in respect of Adams, and Bride's hash of testimony over the Antillian message from The Californian of ice bergs seen, and incidentally not also picking up the earlier message from the Parisian of what is regarded as the same bergs.

We do have ample evidence of other ships listening in to messages passing between other ships. The Baltic - Balfour. Bride on Titanic doing his accounts as he claimed. Durrant on the Mount Temple listening in on most stuff.
The reason in many cases is because of 'artistic licence' by Marconi and his manager. You sure do not think for a moment that what was presented to the Inquiries was unadulterated? The Commissioner spotted that one right away. The treatment of the Frankfurt is a case in point.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Absolutely. It is also very clear that there were many back-and-forth communications between operators that simply were not put down in their PVs. Balfour talks of Californian and Birma taking up the airwaves with lots of unnecessary communications making it impossible for him to get through. Even in the case of operators that were more diligent in what they reported in their PVs, such Durrant, they too seemed to copy down messages on chits of paper which were later used to make up their PV. Perhaps that is why there was this apparent gap in Virginian's PV.
Balfour was a pompous fool.
His Evans "talking all the time", took up about 15 minutes of his pv record before 8 am, and 15 minutes at the time Californian was making contact with Carpathia.
T
he man had no idea as to what was going on in the immediate vicinity o the disaster - thanks to our hero, Rostron. So how did he know that Evans was being 'irrelevant'?

There were two methods of treating messages by R/Os.
1. A formal message was written on formal message forms and delivered according to the importance of the addressee. Master messages took priority
2. Urgent messages were written on a scrap-pad and delivered immediately and thereafter copied into the wireless Log.

The biggest 'gap' was Cottam. What on earth was so important for him to do other than do as Durrant and Evans did?
 
Julian Atkins

Julian Atkins

Member
Hi Jim,

I don't myself take the view that you do in respect Marconi or his companies in respect of PVs and Marconigram chits/forms. I am well aware of other issues with Marconi at the time. And some of these issues do relate to him initially giving conflicting testimony at the USA Inquiry of some later wireless messages, but not of wireless messages of say the 14th or 15th April 1912.

As to your question about Cottam, it is perhaps a matter for another thread, but Cottam lived to old age, and I have never found any interview with him on specifics later than the 1956 BBC interview which was rather perfunctory.

What we do know is that Cottam didn't take any documents with him to the USA Inquiry, and left the CQD Marconigram form on his wireless desk. He was then replaced as the wireless operator on the Carpathia, as he was required to remain in the USA. Paul Lee on his website has a newspaper article Cottam gave when he eventually got back to the UK.

We know that Captain Rostron practically could not provide Cottam's Marconigram forms as the Carpathia had resumed it's voyage and he had to telegram on 4th June from Gibraltar.

A substantial amount of Cottam's Marconigram forms do survive (see Booth, and Hughes, and Sam's book), and the Marconi company reconstructed a 'PV' for the British Inquiry.

I am not excusing Cottam for the lack of entries in his PV just prior to receipt of the CQD. It IS inexcusable, without any proper explanation. I think from memory and without checking this evening, Sam's book indicates that Cottam made no wireless communication from say 30-45 minutes before Titanic sank until 8.35am the following morning (Mount Temple ships time and The Californian ships time). When The Californian arrived adjacent to the Carpathia, a short time earlier, resort was made to using semaphore flag signals! Evans couldn't at that time get a response from Cottam. Cottam had been silent on the airwaves for over 6 hours until his messages to other ships around 8.35am and shortly after telling other ships to 'stand by' etc as in ship's language rather than Marconi slang. (Cottam should have perhaps used the expression 'stand down' rather than 'stand by').
 
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Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Hi Jim,

I don't myself take the view that you do in respect Marconi or his companies in respect of PVs and Marconigram chits/forms. I am well aware of other issues with Marconi at the time. And some of these issues do relate to him initially giving conflicting testimony at the USA Inquiry of some later wireless messages, but not of wireless messages of say the 14th or 15th April 1912.

As to your question about Cottam, it is perhaps a matter for another thread, but Cottam lived to old age, and I have never found any interview with him on specifics later than the 1956 BBC interview which was rather perfunctory.

What we do know is that Cottam didn't take any documents with him to the USA Inquiry, and left the CQD Marconigram form on his wireless desk. He was then replaced as the wireless operator on the Carpathia, as he was required to remain in the USA. Paul Lee on his website has a newspaper article Cottam gave when he eventually got back to the UK.

We know that Captain Rostron practically could not provide Cottam's Marconigram forms as the Carpathia had resumed it's voyage and he had to telegram on 4th June from Gibraltar.

A substantial amount of Cottam's Marconigram forms do survive (see Booth, and Hughes, and Sam's book), and the Marconi company reconstructed a 'PV' for the British Inquiry.

I am not excusing Cottam for the lack of entries in his PV just prior to receipt of the CQD. It IS inexcusable, without any proper explanation. I think from memory and without checking this evening, Sam's book indicates that Cottam made no wireless communication from say 30-45 minutes before Titanic sank until 8.35am the following morning (Mount Temple ships time and The Californian ships time). When The Californian arrived adjacent to the Carpathia, a short time earlier, resort was made to using semaphore flag signals! Evans couldn't at that time get a response from Cottam. Cottam had been silent on the airwaves for over 6 hours until his messages to other ships around 8.35am and shortly after telling other ships to 'stand by' etc as in ship's language rather than Marconi slang. (Cottam should have perhaps used the expression 'stand down' rather than 'stand by').
Hello Julian.

I am sure that you are aware that in an Admiralty Court, re-constituted evidence was not acceptable. That is why the law was changed so that only the working Log Book of a ship could be presented in evidence...not scraps, copies, or The Official Log Book.

We are talking about pv's here...not (massaged)message forms, but a running record of events... Cottom did not keep such a running record.
Durrant of the Mount Temple did, but the one produced at the Inquiry in the US was also a 'massaged' copy of his, as proved by the evidence of Titanic's surviving Operator and the Frankfurt involvement.

Californian did not resort to communicate with Carpathia by semaphore... she was forced to do so by Rostron's wireless silence nonsense. Anyone looking at the picture of her arriving and understanding International code will tell you that.
If Cottam did not transmit until after 8-35 am....(5 minutes after Californian arrived on the scene,) the time was around 6-50 am EST. At that time, Birma and Californian were trying to contact Carpathia . The former was told to 'shut-up'. Hence the 'long irrelevant conversations between their operators noted by that pompous clown, Balfour.

Classic examples of 'messaging' is the 10-35 pm entry in the copy of the Mount Temple PV.
Carpathia did not 'Answer' Titanic - Cottam offer him passed-on messages and certainly not 5 minutes after the 10-25 pm amended CQD (which Sam does not accept).
The Frankfurt was the first to answer Titanic's call for help - not the Mount Temple, . Bride made no mention of the Mount Temple during the first exchanges..
Here's the proof
"Senator SMITH: Was the Frankfurt the first ship that picked up the C.Q.D.?
Mr. BRIDE.: Yes, sir."

Yet according to the PV of the Mount Temple:
"10-48: Frankfurt answers M.G.Y. M.G.Y. gives him his position and asks "Are you coming to our assistance?" D.F.T. asks: "What is the matter with you?"
That is 23 minutes after Frankfurt really did answer the CQD.

Is it a coincidence that DFT's question is exactly the same one asked by Birma's captain? (See Paul Lee's The Birma PV).

There is no mention of the Birma in the Mount Temple PV in the first 2 hours of the drama.
You couldn't make this up - or could you?

Here is another question for the experts:
Birma's Operator was receiving the news when it was interrupted by Titanic's CQD.
Carpathia's Operator claims he was doing exactly the same thing but was not interrupted and it was not until at least 10 minutes after the news was finished; when he called Titanic that he found out. If so, then he found out 10 minutes after Birma.


 
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Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
The Frankfurt was the first to answer Titanic's call for help - not the Mount Temple, . Bride made no mention of the Mount Temple during the first exchanges..
What do you really know about Frankfurt's 10:25pm NYT contact with Titanic? The following is a translation of two consecutive entries from the Frankfurt PV:
10.25 pm Connection with D: Titanic bnd west nil MGY
10.40 pm Titanic gives me position and say: please tell your captain to come to our help we are on ice

The entry for 10.25 appears as a normal ship-to-ship contact with no message traffic to exchange. No mention of a CQD. Yet 15 minute later, according to the Frankfurt PV, they record Titanic asking for help.

Then from the Ypiranga PV:
10.46 DFT [Frankfurt] ruft MGY und gibt position at 12 am 39.47N 50.10W.
MGY sagt are u coming to our?
DFT sagt what is the matter with u?
MGY sagt we have collision with iceberg, sinking psde tell captain to come.
DFT sagt "OK will tell"

So it appears that DFT gave Titanic her midnight position 6 minutes after Frankfurt received a "corrected" position from Titanic. We know that was the corrected position because Ypiranga recorded for 10:36ppm NYT:
10.36 MGY sagt CQD here corrected position 41 46 N 50 14 W require immediate
assistance, we have collision with iceberg sinking. Can nothing hear for noise of steam. (Position ca 15-20 mal.)

Mount Temple's PV entry for 10:25pm NYT had:
10.25 Titanic sending C. Q. D. Answer him, but he replies: "Can not read you, old man, but here my position, 41.46 N., 50.14 W. Come at once. Have struck berg." Informed captain.

Yet, the note Durrant gave to Capt. Moore read:
"Titanic sends C. Q. D. Requires assistance. Position 41° 44' north, longitude 50° 24' west. Come at once. Iceberg," with an entry at the bottom that said: "Can't hear me."

By the way, Ypiranga's first mention of Titanic was:
10.28pm hore CQD von SS Titanic
MGY gibt CQD here Position 41 44 N 50 24 W require assistance
(ca 10 mal)
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Bride made no mention of the Mount Temple during the first exchanges..
Bride only knew what Phillips told him. He even admitted to that. Durrant mentioned that T's operator (Phillips) could not read him. Probably could not read MT's call letters MLQ, so Phillips couldn't tell Bride what ship that was. According to Bride Phillip received a call from Frankfurt and mentioned that one to Bride. Bride said he went out of the cabin to report to Capt. Smith, who he found outside supervising the loading of lifeboats, and Smith told him to go back and find out Frankfurt's position. Probably the 10:40 NYT contact from Frankfort's PV led to that request because at10:46pm NYT from Ypiranga we see Frankfurt's response with her 12am position given.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
What do you really know about Frankfurt's 10:25pm NYT contact with Titanic? The following is a translation of two consecutive entries from the Frankfurt PV:
10.25 pm Connection with D: Titanic bnd west nil MGY
10.40 pm Titanic gives me position and say: please tell your captain to come to our help we are on ice

The entry for 10.25 appears as a normal ship-to-ship contact with no message traffic to exchange. No mention of a CQD. Yet 15 minute later, according to the Frankfurt PV, they record Titanic asking for help.

Then from the Ypiranga PV:
10.46 DFT [Frankfurt] ruft MGY und gibt position at 12 am 39.47N 50.10W.
MGY sagt are u coming to our?
DFT sagt what is the matter with u?
MGY sagt we have collision with iceberg, sinking psde tell captain to co
What do you really know about Frankfurt's 10:25pm NYT contact with Titanic? The following is a translation of two consecutive entries from the Frankfurt PV:
10.25 pm Connection with D: Titanic bnd west nil MGY
10.40 pm Titanic gives me position and say: please tell your captain to come to our help we are on ice

The entry for 10.25 appears as a normal ship-to-ship contact with no message traffic to exchange. No mention of a CQD. Yet 15 minute later, according to the Frankfurt PV, they record Titanic asking for help.

Then from the Ypiranga PV:
10.46 DFT [Frankfurt] ruft MGY und gibt position at 12 am 39.47N 50.10W.
MGY sagt are u coming to our?
DFT sagt what is the matter with u?
MGY sagt we have collision with iceberg, sinking psde tell captain to come.
DFT sagt "OK will tell"

So it appears that DFT gave Titanic her midnight position 6 minutes after Frankfurt received a "corrected" position from Titanic. We know that was the corrected position because Ypiranga recorded for 10:36ppm NYT:
10.36 MGY sagt CQD here corrected position 41 46 N 50 14 W require immediate
assistance, we have collision with iceberg sinking. Can nothing hear for noise of steam. (Position ca 15-20 mal.)

Mount Temple's PV entry for 10:25pm NYT had:
10.25 Titanic sending C. Q. D. Answer him, but he replies: "Can not read you, old man, but here my position, 41.46 N., 50.14 W. Come at once. Have struck berg." Informed captain.

Yet, the note Durrant gave to Capt. Moore read:
"Titanic sends C. Q. D. Requires assistance. Position 41° 44' north, longitude 50° 24' west. Come at once. Iceberg," with an entry at the bottom that said: "Can't hear me."

By the way, Ypiranga's first mention of Titanic was:
10.28pm hore CQD von SS Titanic
MGY gibt CQD here Position 41 44 N 50 24 W require assistance
(ca 10 mal)

DFT sagt "OK will tell"

So it appears that DFT gave Titanic her midnight position 6 minutes after Frankfurt received a "corrected" position from Titanic. We know that was the corrected position because Ypiranga recorded for 10:36ppm NYT:
10.36 MGY sagt CQD here corrected position 41 46 N 50 14 W require immediate
assistance, we have collision with iceberg sinking. Can nothing hear for noise of steam. (Position ca 15-20 mal.)

Mount Temple's PV entry for 10:25pm NYT had:
10.25 Titanic sending C. Q. D. Answer him, but he replies: "Can not read you, old man, but here my position, 41.46 N., 50.14 W. Come at once. Have struck berg." Informed captain.

Yet, the note Durrant gave to Capt. Moore read:
"Titanic sends C. Q. D. Requires assistance. Position 41° 44' north, longitude 50° 24' west. Come at once. Iceberg," with an entry at the bottom that said: "Can't hear me."

By the way, Ypiranga's first mention of Titanic was:
10.28pm hore CQD von SS Titanic
MGY gibt CQD here Position 41 44 N 50 24 W require assistance
I know exactly what you know, Sam - that the man who was there said his boss told him that the first vessel which responded to the CQD was the Frankfurt.
Unlike you, I do not speculate
What I also know, is that as soon as a vessel responded to the CQD, Phillips would have sent his Junior to inform Smith and that the first response was to the first (Captain Smith's) CQD - not Boxhall's.

Frankfurt's CQD is curious. It notes a contact at 10-25 pm - yet it makes no mention of a distress at that time, but we know Titanic was sending out a distress at that time which included a distress position.
As for your German vessel CV quotes:
1. Explain why the Ypiranga was getting Smith's CQD at 10-28 pm while Mount Temple was getting Boxhall's 3 minutes earlier, and Mount Temple received Smiths CQD before he received receiving Boxhall's which he received at 10-25 pm.
2. Explain why, in the early hours of April 15, less than an hour after Titanic sank; the Associated Press reported the second (Boxhall's) CQD as being at 10-25 pm EST and made no mention of an earlier CQD.
3. Why did it take Mount Temple 20 minutes to respond to the CQD?
You can qute as many other sources as you like, Sam, but the truth came from the horse's mouth - Bride, and I bet his supreme boss was not at all pleased - particularly when Marconi had told Cottam to keep his mouth shut.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Bride only knew what Phillips told him. He even admitted to that. Durrant mentioned that T's operator (Phillips) could not read him. Probably could not read MT's call letters MLQ, so Phillips couldn't tell Bride what ship that was. According to Bride Phillip received a call from Frankfurt and mentioned that one to Bride. Bride said he went out of the cabin to report to Capt. Smith, who he found outside supervising the loading of lifeboats, and Smith told him to go back and find out Frankfurt's position. Probably the 10:40 NYT contact from Frankfort's PV led to that request because at10:46pm NYT from Ypiranga we see Frankfurt's response with her 12am position given.
Bride reported the Carpathia contact to Smith and the two of them returned to the wireless room. According to Bride - at that time, Carpathia had already transmitted her position to the Titanic.
However, we know when that was, because when Smith and Bride arrived back at the wireless room - Phillips had just got in contact with the Olympic.
From the Olympic CV, that was at 11-10 EST.
All of which suggests that it was after 11 pm EST when Carpathia transmitted her position to Titanic. If, as per the Mount Temple PV - Carpathia's first time of contact was 11-35 - then it took at least 25 minutes for Rostron to work out his position and send it to Titanic - really?
I suggest that Carpathia first contacted Titanic much later than shown in the MT PV. and a bit of artistic license reorganised Frankfurt and Carpathia.
Incidentally - there is no record of that second contact by Carpathia.
 
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Julian Atkins

Julian Atkins

Member
Hi Jim,

I think it is now abundantly clear that the Mount Temple responded to Evans first on The Californian the morning of the 15th in response to Evans' 'CQ' call, and it wasn't the Frankfurt as Evans stated in his USA Inquiry testimony. Indeed, at the USA Inquiry, both Evans and Captain Lord made no mention whatsoever of the Mount Temple.

Durrant gave evidence on oath to both Inquiries. Captain Lord and Evans both said they didn't know Titanic had sunk, yet Durrant was absolutely sure he told Evans Titanic had sunk in answer to Evans' 'CQ' that morning.

Why not tell the USA Inquiry that The Californian had seen the Mount Temple and passed it around 7.30am? Within around a 1.5 mile passing distance? Why did not Captain Lord semaphore to the small ship with Groves' black funnel and white band near the Mount Temple (that accords with the same small ship kept under observation by Captain Moore on the Mount Temple with the same funnel as Groves' but with an addition/device to the white band that Groves didn't notice).

I think the answers to all this are obvious.
 
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Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Hi Jim,

I think it is now abundantly clear that the Mount Temple responded to Evans first on The Californian the morning of the 15th in response to Evans' 'CQ' call, and it wasn't the Frankfurt as Evans stated in his USA Inquiry testimony. Indeed, at the USA Inquiry, both Evans and Captain Lord made no mention whatsoever of the Mount Temple.

Durrant gave evidence on oath to both Inquiries. Captain Lord and Evans both said they didn't know Titanic had sunk, yet Durrant was absolutely sure he told Evans Titanic had sunk in answer to Evans' 'CQ' that morning.

Why not tell the USA Inquiry that The Californian had seen the Mount Temple and passed it around 7.30am? Within around a 1.5 mile passing distance? Why did not Captain Lord semaphore to the small ship with Groves' black funnel and white band near the Mount Temple (that accords with the same small ship kept under observation by Captain Moore on the Mount Temple with the same funnel as Groves' but with an addition/device to the white band that Groves didn't notice).

I think the answers to all this are obvious.
Hello Julian.
The PV evidence given by Durrant at the UK Inquiry was 'concocted' -it was not the original. It is full of inaccuracies.
E.g. Durrant claims he told Californian that Titanic had sunk - who told Durrant that? The first person to know for sure that Titanic had sunk was Rostron, and he did not tell anyone until after he had recovered the survivors.
Frankfurt was most definitely the first vessel to contact Californian and then. it was understood by Lord that her Operator told Evans that Titanic had sunk. It is in Lord's evidence. This was before Marconi got hold of Evans, and it seems that Evans was also depending on what he read in the newspapers.

Evans was not asked about the Mount Temple in the US, and her captain was called to the stand the day after Evans had left.

Why on earth would Lord want to contact the small ship on the port side locked in the ice? He was looking for Titanic. and that was not her. Why didn't Mount Temple semaphore the small ship?
I suspect that you are chasing moon shadows, Julian. :D
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Carpathia's first contact with Titanic was at 10:35pm NYT, not 11:35. Evans confirmed that at the BI. It was at that time that Boxhall's "corrected" CQD was being sent out. Ypiranga's PV confirms that as late as 10:28, the original distress position was being sent, Durrant's PV was not written down in real time. His note to Moore had the Smith position, not Boxhall's. He sent an amended position to Moore and when he wrote up his PV he put only the amended position in and never mentioned that it had changed.
 
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