Mystery ship candidates

[Samuel Halpern]

He also said his sailng vessel gave a blast on her foghorn which means " I am on the starboard tack." This again tells us a little.

The use of one or two blasts on the fog horn to tell which tack the sailing vessel is on is required under foggy or other reduced visibility conditions (Art. 15). That was not the case that night. Moore kept out of the way of sailing vessel by following the rules under Art. 20. Under the explanations for Art. 20, they state:

That is exactly what Moore did. The sailing vessel was crossing showing her green light. Moore turned his ship to port to pass starboard-to-starboard. He also reversed his engines for short time to fully avoid collision, again in accordance with the rules of the road that was then in effect.

As far bringing up the Samson, that story has been discredited a long time ago. She was not anywhere close that night.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

By coincidence, the Seal Hunter Samson was a power-driven sailing vessel and if the myth about her were to be true, she could have been in about the place where Moore saw his "schooner" and under sail only.

By definition a 'myth' cannot be true but then perhaps it can be a truth of convenience for some.

As far bringing up the Samson, that story has been discredited a long time ago. She was not anywhere close that night.

C'mon Sam, be a sport. The Samson was very likely in a Norwegian port a few thousand miles away but what's that between friends? After all, the earth is spheroid, remember?

 

[Jim Currie]

The use of one or two blasts on the fog horn to tell which tack the sailing vessel is on is required under foggy or other reduced visibility conditions (Art. 15). That was not the case that night. Moore kept out of the way of sailing vessel by following the rules under Art. 20. Under the explanations for Art. 20, they state:

View attachment 76338

That is exactly what Moore did. The sailing vessel was crossing showing her green light. Moore turned his ship to port to pass starboard-to-starboard. He also reversed his engines for short time to fully avoid collision, again in accordance with the rules of the road that was then in effect.

As far bringing up the Samson, that story has been discredited a long time ago. She was not anywhere close that night.

Do not try to teach your grandpa how to suck eggs, my friend.

"Other reduced visibility conditions" How about total darkness -the absence of any wind direction indicators- and a decision to alter tack?
In such conditions as prevailed at the time - how was a sailing vessel captain able to indicate the tack he was on or an alteration of tack he was about to make to the bridge Watch of an approaching vessel? What was the one blast for, if not to indicate tack or change thereof?

Mount Temple was on an easterly course, the relative bearing of a crossing vessel would not have opened until after it had crossed ahead. It would have closed toward the bow then widened on the opposite bow after it was ahead.
Not only that, but any vessel crossing ahead from port to starboard would have been showing a green light, which means the vessel seen by Moore was not a crossing vessel but had already crossed from port to starboard and Moore was simply widening the safety margin.
If there was a vessel there at all, and it gave a single blast on its foghorn and there was no fog then it was telling Moore something.
If she was initially showing green, and any wind was northerly, then she was either on the port tack or more than likely, running free and if her captain decided to alter to starboard he would need to indicate to Moore he was going to do so. A square rig vessel when coming about might conceivably hide her navigation lights for a short time during the period she was doing so.
However, if that indeed happened, then the captain of that sailing vessel deliberately altered course and re-crossed ahead of a steamship without knowing if those on her bridge were alert to the situation, and never mind the Rules.
How about green light = green flare... no sound signal and Mount Temple being much farther east than her master wanted anyone to know?

As for the Samson story? Methinks you pounce too quickly. This what I wrote:
"the Seal Hunter Samson was a power-driven sailing vessel and if the myth about her were to be true,"
I suppose you know that a number of years ago, a couple of your compatriots actually went to Iceland and found someone who remembered the Sampson, and that same person said Samson did not arrive in port for repairs when she was supposed to have done but that her docking dues had been paid in advance?

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Maybe the grandpa needs to stop sucking eggs.
The vessel was crossing left to right showing a green light. In nautical terms, it would have closed toward the port bow then widened on the starboard bow after it was ahead. not only that, but any vessel crossing ahead from port to starboard would have been showing a green light, which she did.
Moore altered his to port to pass the vessel starboard-to-starboard, green to green in accordance with the rules Art. 20.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

I would submit to all, regardless of whatever "side" that they take, that the whole "mystery ship" thing is a red herring. A distraction which puts the cart before the horse and is actually unhelpful to the Californian. What's germane is that the two guys on the watch....Officer Stone and Officer Apprentice Gibson saw something out of the ordinary and for whatever reasons....good or bad, failed to act decisively.

You all can, and have, debated the reasons at length and no doubt will continue to do so.
Fair enough. Some of you may even be right.
BUT, it doesn't help the Californian because they still bear the responsibility for how they acted or failed to act.

Not the Mount Temple, not the Almarian, not the Samson, (Which couldn't possibly have been there!) not the Carpathia, or for that matter, not the Queen Anne's Revenge under Captain Blood or Blackbeard. The entire Second and Sixth Fleet could have been there drag racing aircraft carriers and it still doesn't help the Californian.


The Californian's officer bear the sole responsibility for how they either acted or failed to act. Not anybody else, but them. It's all on them. For any other actors in the area if any, theirs is a separate responsibility.

We now return you to your borderline hostile Pro/Anti-Lord debate, already in progress.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Maybe the grandpa needs to stop sucking eggs.

I agree, especially whole - shell and all. They increase cholesterol and narrow arteries, including cerebral arteries.

I would submit to all, regardless of whatever "side" that they take, that the whole "mystery ship" thing is a red herring. A distraction which puts the cart before the horse and is actually unhelpful to the Californian.

Absolutely true and very well said. Thank you.

The Californian's officer bear the sole responsibility for how they either acted or failed to act. Not anybody else, but them. It's all on them.

True again and even though the best pro-active action by Captain Lord and his crew would perhaps have made no more than 20 more lives saved (if that), the fact that they did not even try will remain against them.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

True again and even though the best pro-active action by Captain Lord and his crew would perhaps have made no more than 20 more lives saved (if that), the fact that they did not even try will remain against them.

Tracy Smith, Captain Erik Wood and I actually wrote an article on that. They would have needed a full day to effect a transfer of everybody aboard.

They didn't have it. They had a couple of hours from the understanding that they were in trouble to a trip in to Davy Jones Locker. Those are the cold and merciless numbers.

 

[Seumas]

True again and even though the best pro-active action by Captain Lord and his crew would perhaps have made no more than 20 more lives saved (if that), the fact that they did not even try will remain against them.

Tracy Smith, Captain Erik Wood and I actually wrote an article on that. They would have needed a full day to effect a transfer of everybody aboard.

They didn't have it. They had a couple of hours from the understanding that they were in trouble to a trip in to Davy Jones Locker. Those are the cold and merciless numbers.

That was the golden age of ET forums fifteen-twenty years ago.

Captain Wood once wrote a series of marvellous posts years ago explaining in great detail but also in clear, simple English every little thing a ship's master must do and think of when evacuating a vessel. Some of the best posting on ET I have read. Still have it bookmarked.

 

[Steven Christian]

I was going to ask a question about fishing boats being in the area but the answer is already on ET. Link if anyone is interested.

FISHING BOATS NEAR

www.encyclopedia-titanica.org

 

[Jim Currie]

Maybe the grandpa needs to stop sucking eggs.
The vessel was crossing left to right showing a green light. In nautical terms, it would have closed toward the port bow then widened on the starboard bow after it was ahead. not only that, but any vessel crossing ahead from port to starboard would have been showing a green light, which she did.
Moore altered his to port to pass the vessel starboard-to-starboard, green to green in accordance with the rules Art. 20.

Nonsense! Try reading the evidence properly - and all of it. For your edification

"Mr. MOORE.
We turned her right around at once, sir, and then when he came down we took the chart out and found out where the Titanic was and steered her by the compass north 65° east true.

I met a schooner or some small craft, and I had to get out of the way of that vessel, and the light of that vessel seemed to go out...
When this light was on my bow, a green light, I starboarded my helm.
She was a little off our bow, and I immediately starboarded the helm and got the two lights green to green, sir.
I was steering east and this green light was opening to me.

(He changes his heading like the wind.)

Where does Moore say it was a crossing vessel? He clearly stated it was OPENING which in case you do not understand means that the angle on his bow was getting bigger. See here:

Grandpa.

 

[Jim Currie]

I would submit to all, regardless of whatever "side" that they take, that the whole "mystery ship" thing is a red herring. A distraction which puts the cart before the horse and is actually unhelpful to the Californian. What's germane is that the two guys on the watch....Officer Stone and Officer Apprentice Gibson saw something out of the ordinary and for whatever reasons....good or bad, failed to act decisively.

You all can, and have, debated the reasons at length and no doubt will continue to do so.
Fair enough. Some of you may even be right.
BUT, it doesn't help the Californian because they still bear the responsibility for how they acted or failed to act.

Not the Mount Temple, not the Almarian, not the Samson, (Which couldn't possibly have been there!) not the Carpathia, or for that matter, not the Queen Anne's Revenge under Captain Blood or Blackbeard. The entire Second and Sixth Fleet could have been there drag racing aircraft carriers and it still doesn't help the Californian.


The Californian's officer bear the sole responsibility for how they either acted or failed to act. Not anybody else, but them. It's all on them. For any other actors in the area if any, theirs is a separate responsibility.

We now return you to your borderline hostile Pro/Anti-Lord debate, already in progress.

Nope! Michael
The officers of Californian acted exactly as any other persons faced with the same problem would have acted.
Remember your navy days. When faced with uncertainty, you reported to a senior. It was the senior's duty to evaluate what he was being told by a lower rank and to act accordingly. Here is what Stone told his interrogator:
". I kept the ship under close observation, and I did not see any reason to suppose they were sent as distress signals from this ship...I had had the steamer under observation all the watch, and that I had made reports to the Captain concerning her, and I thought it my duty when the ship went away from us altogether to tell him. it was my duty to do so, and it was his duty to listen to it".
So you can't blame the juniors for doing their job. Nor can you blame the commander if he gave the appropriate orders. This was not "passing the buck". You know as well as I do, a ship is not a Democracy.

As for the mystery ship being a red herring?

As you probably know the expression means to lay a false trail. A false trail away from what?
Consider this: if the evidence of Boxhall had been accepted, then the real culprits in this sad tail would have been those on the ship that steamed within 5 miles of Titanic while she was sinking and crying for help then shrugged and turned away.
This being so, then I ask you and others a simple question:
Supposing by some bit of luck, the identity of the vessel in question is discovered... what would should be the thoughts of those who have twisted existing evidence to fit a popular belief?

 

[Samuel Halpern]

The officers of Californian acted exactly as any other persons faced with the same problem would have acted.

So say you.

 

[Jim Currie]

So say you.

Yes I do say, Sam, because unlike you, I have served over and under and know what I am talking about.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>As for the mystery ship being a red herring?<<

Yes, it's a red herring. If there was another vessel there...I'm open to the possibility...than theirs is a seperate responsibility. They own it, Californian does not.

Californian, Lord, and his happy complement bear the responsibility for their actions alone, not somebody elses.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

So say you.

Sam, is there an abandoned brick wall anywhere in your neighborhood? If so, you might find it useful now and then (but be sure to wear a mask)

PS: There is one that I was using a few months ago but that cannot be shipped out. Each to his own (wall).