Mystery ship candidates

[Arun Vajpey]

You see a ship, just faintly, by your estimates, maybe 10 miles away.
They are not responding to the distress rockets

Would you send your passengers to row over to that vessel and have her come at once to your ship?

Sorry Cam, I know that the question was meant for Sam but I want to put in my two pence.

Your question can be considered either "generally" or as specifically relevant to the Titanic's actual situation.

Let us take the Titanic's actual situation first. If the other ship by the Captain Smith's estimate was about 10 miles away, it would have taken a lifeboat over 3 hours just to reach it, let alone anything else. By then the Titanic would long have been on the ocean floor. Smith more or less knew that by what Thomas Andrews had told him after a proper damage assessment and so under those circumstances Smith's order made no sense.

On the other hand, if Andrews' calculations had shown that the Titanic would stay afloat for 8 to 10 hours, then Smith's order would have made perfect sense. Also, by then other ships could have also come for the rescue.

 

[Cam Houseman]

Sorry Cam, I know that the question was meant for Sam but I want to put in my two pence.

Your question can be considered either "generally" or as specifically relevant to the Titanic's actual situation.

Let us take the Titanic's actual situation first. If the other ship by the Captain Smith's estimate was about 10 miles away, it would have taken a lifeboat over 3 hours just to reach it, let alone anything else. By then the Titanic would long have been on the ocean floor. Smith more or less knew that by what Thomas Andrews had told him after a proper damage assessment and so under those circumstances Smith's order made no sense.

On the other hand, if Andrews' calculations had shown that the Titanic would stay afloat for 8 to 10 hours, then Smith's order would have made perfect sense. Also, by then other ships could have also come for the rescue.

That's ok Arun, wouldn't be a message board if we all didn't chime in with our two cents

I understand what you mean. But its also on the passengers as well who at first didn't want to board the lifeboats, Like Emergency cutter No. 1, which left at 1am, only 12 people wanted to leave in that lifeboat. but 30 minutes later, lifeboats began to leave full and overflowing as the passengers began to know she didn't have long left above the Atlantic.

Captain Smith also ordered the lifeboats back to be filled from the lower gangways, but the seamen never came back. So I think we can begin to divide some of the blame here as well

 

[Cam Houseman]

I suspect that it would be claimed that the ship hadn't actually hit a rock, Cam, but that it was in collision with an empty beer bottle which, by The Rules, had right of way. That the lookouts should have seen it glistening in the light of a star which had an amazing magnitude and was seen 22.7796666 degrees above the horizon.
Besides which, the master and his officers did not know how to fill the lifeboats and were all so blind drunk on Captain Morgan rum that they only imagined that they saw another vessel 10 miles away which was actually 47 miles away. Not only that, but the Apprentice couldn't find the matches to light the rocket fuses.

and don't forget Captain Morgan was in on a conspiracy about sinking the ship on purpose because the ship was damaged in a collision previously

 

[Seumas]

That's ok Arun, wouldn't be a message board if we all didn't chime in with our two cents

I understand what you mean. But its also on the passengers as well who at first didn't want to board the lifeboats, Like Emergency cutter No. 1, which left at 1am, only 12 people wanted to leave in that lifeboat. but 30 minutes later, lifeboats began to leave full and overflowing as the passengers began to know she didn't have long left above the Atlantic.

Captain Smith also ordered the lifeboats back to be filled from the lower gangways, but the seamen never came back. So I think we can begin to divide some of the blame here as well

Dr Paul Lee has looked into that one and came to the conclusion that it is likely a myth (i) that Smith ordered such a thing and (ii) that Alf Nichols and his men went below and never made it back topside.

Go just over half way down the page below and read the lengthy section entitled "The Disappearing Boatswain". I think you will find it deeply interesting and Dr Lee explains his reasoning in painstaking detail, provides helpful graphics and provides a source at every step:

http://www.paullee.com/titanic/belowdecks.php

 

[Cam Houseman]

Alrighty

I trust Dr. Lee's research but I don't think we can 100% rule it out definitely rule it out

 

[Jim Currie]

and don't forget Captain Morgan was in on a conspiracy about sinking the ship on purpose because the ship was damaged in a collision previously

Kidding aside, Cam, if contributors to this thread cannot, or fail to accept the firm evidence from at least five (5) separate witnesses that Californian was showing a green side light in the direction of Titanic at the time a red one was seen from Titanic's decks , then they are hiding something. Because, unless the evidence for this can be disproved, there was most certainly a mystery vessel seen from the deck of Titanic and it was not the Californian.
All the rowing for miles...the incompetence of the master and or the crew is simply a substitute for a rebuttal of the red light evidence. Because, as is obvious to a blind sailor on a dark night, if that red light evidence cannot be explained, then all the long-winded nonsense about Californian being on Titanic's port bow is simply a collection of words designed to defend the indefensible.
Another childish ploy used as a decoy is the "If you can't name the mystery vessel it didn't exists" brigade.
The existence of an entity does not require a label in order for it to exist. However irrefutable evidence of its existence cannot be denied.

 

[Seumas]

Alrighty

I trust Dr. Lee's research but I don't think we can 100% rule it out definitely rule it out

I have a feeling that once you've read "The Disappearing Boatswain" though, you will have ruled it out.

He points out that the whole "the Bo'sun and six seaman went below to open gangway doors and got trapped" story actually doesn't make any sense when you consider the approximate time it was supposed to have taken place at and the level the water was at in relation to the gangway doors at the time.

So it is most likely yet another myth. I actually used to believe it was true myself.

 

[Cam Houseman]

I have a feeling that once you've read "The Disappearing Boatswain" though, you will have ruled it out.

He points out that the whole "the Bo'sun and six seaman went below to open gangway doors and got trapped" story actually doesn't make any sense when you consider the approximate time it was supposed to have taken place at and the level the water was at in relation to the gangway doors at the time.

So it is most likely yet another myth. I actually used to believe it was true myself.

Ok, but the gangway door was definitely opened during the sinking. Ken Marschall has noted the safety gate was drawn open, and in the open position, the door was in no visible area of Hull deformation, and the doors on the starboard side are shut and locked tightly.

They're even barely visible on the wreck
NOAA 2003

 

[Seumas]

Ok, but the gangway door was definitely opened during the sinking. Ken Marschall has noted the safety gate was drawn open, and in the open position, the door was in no visible area of Hull deformation, and the doors on the starboard side are shut and locked tightly.

They're even barely visible on the wreck
NOAA 2003

View attachment 76424

Dr Lee touches upon that and provides graphic to explain why this myth just isn't a runner. It's a good read, go through it, you'll enjoy it.

Regarding the open gangway door on the wreck:

"There are vertical buckles running vertically down the port side from C Deck downwards, below the forward expansion joint (and not too far from the doors), but not the starboard side - this may have a bearing on which gangway port opened, perhaps popping open the portside one open upon impact. With the bow down by the head, a growing list to port, and this "open" D deck door hinged on its forwardmost side, it would have easier to open this door than its couterparts; the door would swing freely open. But, of course, if any portion of the door was submerged, this would have hindered attempts to open it."

 

[Jim Currie]

Dr Lee touches upon that and provides graphic to explain why this myth just isn't a runner. It's a good read, go through it, you'll enjoy it.

Regarding the open gangway door on the wreck:

"There are vertical buckles running vertically down the port side from C Deck downwards, below the forward expansion joint (and not too far from the doors), but not the starboard side - this may have a bearing on which gangway port opened, perhaps popping open the portside one open upon impact. With the bow down by the head, a growing list to port, and this "open" D deck door hinged on its forwardmost side, it would have easier to open this door than its couterparts; the door would swing freely open. But, of course, if any portion of the door was submerged, this would have hindered attempts to open it."

Can you point me to this, Seamas?

A vertical buckle on the hull below C Deck suggests damage incurred due to a longitudinal bending moment...e.g....what's known as "hogging" .the bow hitting the sea bed first ... digging in then the rest, slowly settling onto the sea bed This would but the upper decks C, D and E in tension, and the lower decks in compression. Add to this a bulging outward force due to sea bed resistance and you have a recipe for side door failures. However, I would suspect the doors would simply spring but remain in situ.

 

[Seumas]

Can you point me to this, Seamas?

A vertical buckle on the hull below C Deck suggests damage incurred due to a longitudinal bending moment...e.g....what's known as "hogging" .the bow hitting the sea bed first ... digging in then the rest, slowly settling onto the sea bed This would but the upper decks C, D and E in tension, and the lower decks in compression. Add to this a bulging outward force due to sea bed resistance and you have a recipe for side door failures. However, I would suspect the doors would simply spring but remain in situ.

Sure thing.

Scroll three quarters of the way down until you come to the pic of the gangway door on the wreck. You'll find the relevant bit there. Here's the address again in case you need it - http://www.paullee.com/titanic/belowdecks.php

I'm not going to quote the whole article because I have a great a dislike of people who copy and paste entire articles (complete with graphics) and put them in ET posts. It's not the done thing in my opinion.

 

[Cam Houseman]

Can you point me to this, Seamas?

A vertical buckle on the hull below C Deck suggests damage incurred due to a longitudinal bending moment...e.g....what's known as "hogging" .the bow hitting the sea bed first ... digging in then the rest, slowly settling onto the sea bed This would but the upper decks C, D and E in tension, and the lower decks in compression. Add to this a bulging outward force due to sea bed resistance and you have a recipe for side door failures. However, I would suspect the doors would simply spring but remain in situ.

I have trouble seeing any buckle

Portside Mosaic (zoomed in) RMST Inc 2010

(I forget the documentary name and year, but its from the 1990s)

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Hi Sam, I hope you're well!

I have a question for you,
say your ship struck a rock or so, and began to sink. You were in command of a passenger liner. You are boarding the lifeboats.
You see a ship, just faintly, by your estimates, maybe 10 miles away.
They are not responding to the distress rockets

Would you send your passengers to row over to that vessel and have her come at once to your ship?

What I would do is simple, knowing that my vessel will not stay afloat for very long. I would see to it that as many of the boats were filled up and have them keep close together and wait for known rescue vessels to arrive. I wouldn't waist my time or resources on a vessel that was apparently ignoring my distress signals. Smith knew help was coming, and it would be hours before they arrived. The only priority should have been to save as many lives as possible by filling the boats and making sure that lamps were in them so that they could be seen in the dark. The smartest one was Boxhall who put those flares into his boat before he left.

 

[Jim Currie]

I have trouble seeing any buckle

Portside Mosaic (zoomed in) RMST Inc 2010
View attachment 76434

(I forget the documentary name and year, but its from the 1990s)
View attachment 76435

Exactly! Good post.

 

[Cam Houseman]

thanks Jim