Mystery Ship made simple

>>In the instance I referred to above with the Lowe affidavit, one of the few (if only) researchers to have access to the document was Reade...<<

While I'm not interested in getting embroiled in any more Californian debates (Not without an asbestos oversuit anyway) I was wondering if Lowe's affidavit is still extant and who has it. It would be nice to see the whole of this document see daylight again.
 
I've only been out of the UK for a couple of months, and already I'm dropping an 'a' when spelling Phaal...!

I've come across two written affidavits Lowe made - copies are in the possession of his family. I have copies of both, access to which was given to me by the current owner. The one I refer to above was made prior to leaving NY, and would have been available to the BoT - it was among those made by all the surviving crew (such as the statements taken aboard survivors on the Lapland before they were allowed to disperse in the UK, which served as a basis for selecting crewmen to give testimony at the British Inquiry).

Reade also saw this document, as he cites it in his text. From memory, though, he doesn't mention the then owner's name (I'd have to check TSTSS)...it is possible that he received a copy from another source, or that he was respecting the owner's privacy.
 
How about this:
we know that the Californian's 7.30pm star sight was 42.05 N. We also know that the current that night was 0.7 knots to the SSE.

Now, taking the N-S distances only, to make the sums easier (!)...... when the Californian stopped, she was at 42.05 N, but this doesn't, I believe take account of drift. If we assume, probably incorrectly!, that the drift started straight after 7.30pm, then this will mean that the Californian stopped for the night 1.983 miles south of where she thought she was (since she stopped at 10.21pm). By the time the Titanic collided with the berg, she would have drifted another 0.933 miles south.

The Titanic's stern section is at 41.44 N, and this is after 2 hours 40 minutes of drift, so she possibly started at a point 1.86 miles to the northward. So, therefore, all these assumptions being correct, the 11.40pm Titanic-Californian distance would be 16.22 miles N-S.

So, could the two ships have seen each other?

The Californian's sidelights, at a height of 49 feet above the water, provide a range to the horizon is about 8.0 miles.
From the Titanic, the height of the sidelights above the waterline would be 60 feet, or range to the horizon of 8.8 miles. So, the total possible didstance to the horizon would be 16.8 miles, which means that anyone inside this distance would see the other ship's sidelights.... note that this does not include how faint the sidelights would seem from the other ship - it may be that they were too dim to be seen at that range.

If Gill's account is to be believed (and I for one don't), then he was watching the other ship (which he didn't see) firing rockets at 12.45pm-ish. Now, he was several feet below the bridge where Stone and Gibson were watching the ship and rockets. It may be that Gill was just too low down, and below the horizon to see the other ship. "His" range to the horizon can be calculated if someone can tell me where his vantage point and his height above the waterline. I guess he'd be watching from the well-deck, or perhaps f'ocsle or poop.

It also means that the flares fired by Boxhall would be below the range of the horizon and hence, not seen.

Paul

 
Paul,

I am afraid that for all your mathematical calculations you have overlooked the simple fact that the rockets fired by Boxhall exploded some significant distance in height in the sky. Rather than disprove the fact that the Californian couldn't have seen Titanic your maths actually must conclude that the rockets seen by officers on Californian must have come from Titanic.

Michael
 
Er, yes. That was my point! If the two ships could see each others sidelights, then the Californian saw the rockets of the Titanic.

btw, my scenario above is a worset case scenario (both Titanic and Californian hampered by the same drift, and the Californian affected by the current straight after the 7.30pm star reading).

Also, btw again, by 6.00pm, the Californian would have been 11.8 miles north of the Titanic's wreck site, close enough for the Carpathia to see her. By that time, the sea was becoming a bit choppy and the wind had picked up, so the Californian might have drifted even further south.

Best wishes

Paul

 
And....on a different note: many quotes have been stated about the height that Titanic's socket signals made before they burst. Harrison says 150 feet; Read says 600-800 feet; Eaton and Haas say 800 feet.

For a signal to be fired from a height of 60 feet and attain a total height of 860 feet, would make the air burst visible, from sea level, for a radius of 33.4 miles. For an observer on the Californian's bridge deck, he/she could see to 8.5 miles. Therefore, for the
Californian not to have seen ANYTHIN the distance between the two ships would have to be at least 41.9 miles....

Paul

 
Paul,

Thanks for clarifying that. What these observations of yours do mean is that if, as I have often speculated and discussed with Senan and others, the rockets appeared to be just at the masthead height of the ship seen from the decks of Californian, it is most conceivable that there was indeed another ship between Titanic and Californian whose movements were inconsistent with what was observed on both Californian and Titanic.

Best wishes,

Michael
 
Hi Michael,
My pleasure! I used to think the same as you, until I re-read the "secret" statements of Gibson and Stone, and their statements at the BoT enquiries. Stone said that although he thought that the rockets came from a greater distance beyond the other ship, he couldn't understand why they would change their bearings when the other ship moved.
(Perhaps the other ship seeming "to move" was a change in bearing due to a locally different current? Who knows?)
Gibson, who viewed the other ship through binoculars said he saw a flash on the deck and a streak in the sky before the rocket burst into stars.

So, it does seem that the rockets were fired by the other ship. The only bit of evidence that I have massive problems with is Stone's assertion that the rockets he saw went to only half the height of the other ships masthead light, which would hardly make it a rocket he saw - more a roman candle, perhaps? I don't know! He still described it as a rocket!

Or perhaps there was some strange atmopsheric anomaly that night that refracted light at higher atmosphere downwards - a bit like a mirage in reverse? The only problem with this is that it seeks to explain one mystery by invoking another.

Best wishes, Michael

Paul

 
Also, I recall that several people in the lifeboats saw a bright white light to the north. It is possible that they saw a bright star (look at Dave Gittins excellent website for more info), but it my opinion that they saw one of the Californian's masthead lights. If they had seen a decklight, then the Californian should have seen Boxhall's flares.

I don't know the height of the masthead lights on the Californian, but I am guessing that they are abut 80 feet above the waterline. Also, I estimate that the line of sight for a person in a lifeboat is about 5 feet. This gives a maximum distance of 12.7 miles maximum....

Of course, there are exceptions to this. In Violet Jessop's biography, QM.Rowe is reported as having just been on a course that enables you to judge distances accurately at sea, and he judged the other ship to be 5 miles away. And there are witnesses who saw the other ships red sidelight, which implies they must have been even closer!

Makes my brain hurt....

Paul

 
Michael F. Barratt

...the rockets appeared to be just at the masthead height of the ship seen from the decks of Californian, it is most conceivable that there was indeed another ship between Titanic and Californian...

"The conclusion must be drawn that a ship some five miles distant from the Californian was in the line of sight of Titanic's distress rockets. This hypothesis is given credence by Stone's testimony that he thought the rockets came from a greater distance past the ship because they did not seem to go very high and were only about half the height of the steamer's masthead lights. When later the ship was seen steaming towards the south west, she could very well have been steaming slowly through the ice towards Titanic's position." (Excerpt from Chapter: Giving S.S. Californian's Captain Lord His Due - The sinking of the Titanic: An Ice- Pilot's Perspective}

Regards,
L. M. Collins
 
The argument that the mystery ship was steaming straight towards the Titanic to maintain the bearing is a very feeble one.

Also, what about Gibson? When he saw the other ship through his binoculars, he saw a flash of light of light on the deck, and the rocket spew into the air.

And how come no-one on the Titanic saw this other ship that was steaming towards them?

Of course, it all makes sense if you ignore the evidence that doesn't fit your theory!
 
In his article, Senan said, "The Californian is a red herring." I don't see how any reasonable person can disagree with that statement, regardless of what your view is on the "mystery ship." It's the biggest, most bogus, "red herring" in the whole disaster story. You've all been had, including your hero, Walter Lord.
 
>>In his article, Senan said, "The Californian is a red herring." <<

And he may be right, but in the context of the politics of the times, perhaps not for the reasons some may think. Senator Smith couldn't nail J.P, Morgan's hide to the shed, though he tried, and the Mersey court appears to have had as it's unspoken but real mandate "Find the problem and fix the problem, and do it in a way that doesn't embarrass a lot of important people by being so rash as to admit that a problem existed in the first place. (In my opinion. I could be wrong!)

Captain Lord and the Californian must have been like manna from heavan in this regard as it was a nice distraction. It had to have been helpful that there was...in all fairness...some reasonable evidence against the man as well. Partisans in this debate may explain it or explain it away, but it doesn't go away.

>>I don't see how any reasonable person can disagree with that statement,<<

Well, let's see...by researching the historical problems, the points both against Captain Lord as well as that in his favour, I can reasonably see why people would come to differing conclusions on the matter. And like it or not, the Californian was there and ultimately was a player...however unwillingly...in the whole drama.

>>You've all been had, including your hero, Walter Lord.<<

Mmmmmmmmm...we've all been "had" how??? The Californian was there. Rightly or wrongly, she did fail to respond to the distress signals which nobody on either side denies were seen. Is it really such a surprise that she became the focus of a lot of official scrutiny when a possibility exists that she might have saved at least some lives had she at least attempted to do something? And since this is a historical event, is it really such a shock that it would be debated in a forum that has the discussion and study of a particular facet of history as it's very reason for existance?

In light of that, how is researching, debating, and exchanging ideas on the technical and historical problems related to this sorry mess being "had?"
 
If you take away all the scientific relevence such as: Height, distance, drift, etc....That still leaves us with the almost undisputable fact that Titanic passangers saw a ship and California's officers saw a ship. I've seen very few dispute this and the survivors and officers have admited this. What are the odds that there was a third ship between them? I know it's been speculated to be a illegal fishing trawler etc but I just don't believe that one. To me, the odds are slim to none that they weren't seeing each other. The science is just a way of judging how far away from each other they were and if the California could have saved them.

Just my humble little opinion
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