Naughty behavior and sordid happenings in the Gilded Age

May 27, 2007
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Free Love Kept Men and Women plus other naughty behavior and sordid happenings in the Gilded Age and beyond
I always wanted to start a topic like this. This is the place to discuss Free Love and folks living and traveling together who are not Married and have no intentions to marry. Plus scandals or other items that apply to this thread that would be of note to Historians or Enthusiasts.
 
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May 27, 2007
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To start it off were there any couple traveling on Titanic who were not married or any other ship for that matter. Any Gigolos or Concubines anybody knows about?
 

Luke Owens

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Jan 18, 2007
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You mean like Guggenheim and his mistress? I've forgotten her name, but she survived Titanic's foundering.

The other major Titanic-related "scandal" I can recall was JJ Astor divorcing his first wife to marry Madeleine...who was, what, seven months pregnant? at the time of the sinking.

Then there was the unknown couple in the stateroom who told the steward to go away when he was trying to roust them out for the lifeboats. No one has ever identified them, to my knowledge.

That's enough from me for now. Anyone else?

Luke
 
May 27, 2007
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You mean like Guggenheim and his mistress?
In part but I also mean just a man and woman or what have you living together as well. Wasn't there a couple in second class who were not married but traveling together as man and wife.

Of course on the Lusitania there was the supposedly the talented Miss Baker and the man who had paid for her voyage and who's cabin was right across for hers. I think his name was Williamson. Jim Kalafus or Mike Poirier could shed some light on that arrangement.
 
May 27, 2007
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Thanks Michael. I believe there was a Titled Lord on the Persia with his secretary\mistress who was the model for the hood ornament for the Rolls Royce Company if I'm not mistaken.
 
May 27, 2007
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It was John Douglas-Scott-Montagu, 2nd Baron Montagu of Beaulieu who survived. His secretary (and mistress) Eleanor Thornton, who was the model for the Rolls-Royce "Spirit of Ecstasy" mascot by Charles Robinson Sykes, died.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Easley South Carolina
>>In Guggenheim's case (& many others) wasn't it common to have mistress?<<

I don't know exactly how common it was but I think there was something of an unspoken understanding to the effect.

>>No great scandal there.<<

So long as she didn't attract a lot of undue attention which would make it easy for the lawfully wedded spouses to pretend that they didn't know. (And often as not, they did.)
 
May 27, 2007
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In Guggenheim's case (& many others) wasn't it common to have mistress? No great scandal there.
Yes, hence the term Love Nest. The term Love Nest came into being during the 20's. Well wide spread usage anyways. It was a house or apartment a married or single man paid the bills on for his Mistress and a place were the mistress lived or were the lovers met.

In F. Scot Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby, Tom Buchanan that dapper man about town (really an arrogant, racist ex athlete ) keeps a apartment for him and Myrtle Wilson (the wife of his own Mechanic George Wilson) to meet in New York. Hence they had a Love Nest.
 
Dec 6, 2000
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I am late to this thread.
George, There were a number of unmarried couples onboard.
George Rosenshine and Miss Maybelle Thorne travelling as Mr & Mrs Thorne
Henry Morley and Kate Phillips travelling as Mr & Mrs Marshall
Denis Lennon and Mary Mullin who travelled as brother & sister under the name of Lennon

Luke, The couple you ask about were most likely the Spencers. - See here: http://www.titanicinquiry.org/USInq/AmInq09Etches01.php
 
May 27, 2007
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Hi Lester,

I am late to this thread.
That's alright.
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Thanks for the interesting information.

Henry Morley and Kate Phillips. Those two I remember. Didn't Kate have a child shortly afterwards?

I also remember Steward Etches trying to get the strangers in that one cabin up on deck.
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Hello George,

Re Kate, so I understand.

Mrs Spencer and her maid survived, but who the other couple with a lifebelt in their hands were I have no idea.
 

Chad Goodwin

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I don't remember where I read it but wasn't there a gentleman in first class who was there with his young male "FRIEND"
 
May 27, 2007
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I don't remember where I read it but wasn't there a gentleman in first class who was there with his young male "FRIEND"
Yes indeed although I too forgot the gentleman's name he was brought aboard Titanic in a stretcher although I remember reading researchers weren't for sure if they were lovers or not? As you probably know Chad, things of that nature were hush, hush in the Gilded Age.
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Although there is a slim change that we are discussing two different couples?
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Chad Goodwin

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things of that nature were hush, hush in the Gilded Age.
.........we shant speak of these things least we go blind
 
May 27, 2007
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things of that nature were hush, hush in the Gilded Age.
.........we shant speak of these things least we go blind
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Course talk indeed but it will not cause us to go blind. That's another discussion entirely. I don't think the mods want us discussing the said act either. It will also cause insanity as well as blindness.
 

Kyrila Scully

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Apr 15, 2001
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Anyone who has read literature from the Victorian and Edwardian era is well familiar with the double standard where sex was at issue. Women were pretty much free to "explore" after they had provided their husbands with a male heir, as meanwhile the husbands "explored" at will--as long as the parties involved in exploration were discreet. Naturally, once the affairs were made public, there were hypocritic measures taken and the one who did the cuckolding was either exiled or divorced. Personal servants and those who worked in transportation service to the passengers of ships or trains were also discreet about the comings and goings of those sneaking across the hall to visit their lovers. It's nothing new--not even restricted to the Victorian and Edwardian ages. It's been going on since Adam and Eve when Lilith came between them.

And of course there were the men who visited other men in the middle of the night and women who visited other women during the wee hours. In the case of one historic mistress, it is said she was "close" to both the husband AND the wife!
 
May 27, 2007
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Anyone who has read literature from the Victorian and Edwardian era is well familiar with the double standard where sex was at issue.
Vanity Fair: the Novel With Out A Hero paints a good and accurate picture of fooling around between the upper classes in early 19th century society and later, what with Recky Sharp Crawley (The English Version of Scarlett O' Hara) and The Marquess of Steyne. Becky did everything right. Gave her husband a male heir, Rawdon Jr.. But the poor girl couldn't get a break once her husband Rawdon Sr. found out about her relationship with Steyne. Her reputation was in shreds and all her money was gone, taken by a infuriated Rawdon to pay his debts. Becky's place in Society also gone. So much for living as to the manor born.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_Fair