Navigational Refutation of Titanic's CQD Position

[monica e. hall]

"........there's a good girl."
Without having, regrettably, anything to contribute to the debate either scientifically, or in terms of experience, surely David Haisman, this remark was unworthy of you?

 

[monica e. hall]

I don't mean David Haisman has nothing to contribute due to science or experience - I mean that I don't - regrettably! The problems of posting ....

 

[Parks Stephenson]

David,

I understand that you are frustrated by many things that are said about Titanic, but do you really think that your approach is working? How much satisfaction are you deriving from the debate? Are you educating those who don't have your experience?

For the life of me, I can't think of any area concerning the Titanic story where you and I have fundamental differences. Yet you seem to have a special place in your heart for me, and are quick to denigrate my character at every turn. Why is that, I sometimes wonder? If there's something factual about the story that I have wrong, why don't you explain it to me and leave my experience (which you obviously have no respect for) out of it? You seem to have plenty of time to tell me that I don't know anything...allow me to save you some time. Instead of wasting your breath with yet another litany about how I'm a nobody, why don't you use that time instead to educate me (although, again, I can't remember where we have actually differed on points of fact).

My first post of the day was a call for more respect and civility in these conversations by all involved. I didn't even touch on the subject matter of this thread. You then proceeded to provide an excellent example of just what I was talking about...without any real point to debate, you instead launched into a withering personal attack. I should thank you for following my call for civility with a premium example of why such a call was warranted.

It has been speculated by others that you see me as a convenient outlet for your frustrations concerning James Cameron. In this scenario, it doesn't really matter what I say, you will always see red whenever my name appears in the forum. Whether or not that speculation is true, the fact of the matter is that I have my opinions, you have your opinions, and this forum is a place to discuss a multitude of opinions. If you think that something I am saying is wrong, then provide an example that will prove me so. I'm man enough to have my assertions stand up to even the most critical analysis, and if I'm wrong, then I'll change accordingly. But to say "I know because of who I am and you don't know because of who you are" has no merit and does nothing to help others who join the debate to learn.

David, I am very well aware that, for whatever reason, you don't like me. I don't need you to like me. Personally, I find from your words that you know almost nothing about me at all, so I conclude from that that you have this intense dislike for a myth that you call Parks. For that reason, I don't dislike you. How could I? We've never met. I do wish, though, for the sake of the other participants in this forum who are trying to learn about Titanic, that you would cease these unrelenting personal attacks...they are a waste of my time, your time, and bandwidth that could be used for more worthwhile discussion.

You are smart and experienced. If you encounter people who refuse to understand the basics of your profession, can't you persuade with examples drawn from your experience? If you can't, then all of your years at sea aren't of much help to anyone here, are they?

Parks

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Whew...the emotions and the egos are getting a little hot and heavy here. I can see where everyone is coming from, but I think we need to be mindful of something Parks said above:

quote:

What I have seen, and prompted me to post, is a hardening of hearts on both sides of the fence. At some point, the lubbers may have been interested in the ways of the sea, and the old salts may have wanted to educate from experience, but that doesn't seem to be the way of it anymore. Arrogance, defensiveness, condescension and anger now seem to define the conversation...I even practiced a couple of these just above by just responding in kind. This debate here has pitted what you term the "Sliderule Mentality" against the "Arrogant Old Salts." Neither are conductive to good debate. Do you think one extreme could exist without the other? Maybe if the crusty mariners would be a little more gracious in their dealings with the lubbers, the slide rules won't have to be wielded in self-defense.

Guess what...he's right. Alicia is also right when she made this statement;

quote:

As I have said before, experience (I refer you to the thread about Smith's conversation with Lightoller) is what got the ship sunk in the first place.

I recall saying something to the effect in one of these threads that the Titanic's navigation team overestimating their ability to see and avoid ice was at the very core of the accident. Can anybody refute that? I can't. David makes this point as well, which I beleive to be equally valid;

quote:

The whole emphasis on much of the debate on these threads over time has been to denigrate the crew of Titanic by whatever means.

It would be well for us to understand that they did the very best that they could using the skills that they had, but that they were also at a point on a learning curve where they ended up learning some very tough lessons the hard way. Tragically, a lot of the SOLAS regulations as well as a number of operational safety standards are written in blood.

Let's think about that and take some time for a breather befor returning to this issue. I'll reopen this thread in a week when we...myself included...have had a chance to cool down a bit.​