Well, Sam, this is not a theory IMO. It is the fact that was discussed back in 1912.
Well, Sam, this is not a theory IMO. It is the fact that was discussed back in 1912.
Let’s be realistic. Boat 8 was launched at 1:10. At that time they could have seen both sidelights of the approaching Californian, and of course if she started drifting away at around 1:30 or so they were not able to reach her. Not to say that the boat 8 could have been affected by its own currents. There are many contradictions in the testimonies of witnesses, and nobody could address all of them, but Boxhall was a Mariner, and he watched the approaching Californian continuously for more than an hour. Therefore, I believe his testimony should be given more weight than to testimonies of others. And once again I do not say the Californian was drifting in an eddy, but there is a good possibility she was.Well let's get real specific here. Besides Boxhall, of course, who exactly said that and when? Do these observations correlate with each other as to direction and time? Boat No. 8 was rowing toward the steamer at the same time that the steamer was showing both red and green. Boxhall said the steamer was approaching. Yet, to those in the boat it seemed they were not not getting any closer. Boat 8 was one of the boats that went about 3 to 4 miles toward the lights before turning around. Rostron confirmed that the boats were scattered over an area of about 4 to 5 miles when the sun came up. What you have here is case of subject opinions as to what was going on relative to vessel movements. There was no way to take a range on the lights because there was no reference point to use such as measuring the angular height of the mast lights relative to the waterline. Also, ask yourself, what was the meteorological visibility condition that night, and was slowly changing causing the luminous range of a light to change as well as one's ability to resolve two closely spaced lights such as the masthead lights of a steamer when the steamer has an angle on the bow of about 1 compass point?
And here's a testimony of Steward Alfred Crawford from boat # 8.EJB142. When did you first see that boat on the bow? How long was it before you launched?
- When we started turning the boats out. That was about 10 minutes after she struck.
EJB143. Did that boat seem to be getting farther away from you?
- No; it seemed to be coming nearer.
EJB144. You are possessed of pretty good eyes?
- I can see a distance of 21 miles, sir.
Thistestimony is also consistent wth Californian drifting in an eddy.18052. You have not told us what distance you rowed in the direction of these lights?
- I should say between 3 and 4 miles; by the time the morning came we were furthest away from the
18053. Did they ever appear to get any nearer?
18054. Do you think the other boat was moving?
- I thought probably she might have been drifting.
18055. You thought they were drifting?
- The other ship was drifting.
18056. In the same direction as yourselves?
- No, it seemed as if she was drifting away from us.
Not continuously. By his own admission, he was also helping around the deck after he worked out the distress position in addition to sending up distress signals and Morsing. Anyway, you need to quantify the movement of your eddy so it matches whatever observations you list.and he watched the approaching Californian continuously for more than an hour.
Come on, Sam, of course I did not mean the only thing he was doing was watching the lights, but I meant he watched every few minutes, which BTW is a better way to notice something is moving.Not continuously. By his own admission, he was also helping around the deck after he worked out the distress position in addition to sending up distress signals and Morsing. Anyway, you need to quantify the movement of your eddy so it matches whatever observations you list.
Boxhall saw the stern light not from the boat, but from the Deck of the Titanic.He was in the same boat as Boxhall. Boxhall said that he saw only one white light which he took for a stern light when he went away in the boat.
Sam, Lucas described what he saw from the D who knows on what time not what he saw from the Titanic. I am not sure how you could compare two observations made from different heights at different times.By the way, Boxhall said that when he left the ship, he saw what he took to be a stern light on the vessel. Yet, we have AB Lucas who said:
it is my understanding Rowe saw the Stern light only from the lifeboat and one masthead light from the Titanic.Maybe he was to busy on the ship to watch the lights.QM's Rowe and Bright were assisting with the firing of distress signals. Both of them saw only one white light from the bridge. Yet Boxhall claimed he was able to see two mastlights and a red sidelight with the naked eye at some point.
Of course I do not believe what everyone said, but maybe we should believe what no one said. In particular it does not appear that there is a more or less reliabale testimony of seeing green light by itself with no red light. Only Boxhall said he saw it. Drifting in an eddy could account for this. Could you, Sam?If you believe everything everyone said, then there had to be many mystery vessels about that came and went from many different directions.
After a year of researching and drafting my (hopefully good) book on Titanic, I begun to realise that we after 50+ years of books and research by numerous historians and writers (from Walter Lord to our very own members here), we have found out about practically everything to know about Titanic.
With a few exceptions, we know everything about the lives of the passengers and society, to the ship's interior design and edwardian mechanics, not to mention seafaring law and opinion at the time, we literally know every minute of the Ship's existence now which begs the question, Where do we go from here?
Many books, research papers and scientific tests have been done and written up about, but for Titanic writers and researchers of the future, except for new photos, the occasional survivors account or even new Californian or mystery ship data, They might end up just repeating what's known.
What are other's thoughts on this? Is it good we found out everything, is there still a huge mountain of missing evidence out there somewhere in a attic or library somewhere?
Hi no there's a new story - see my post just now. Ive just found this site and its awesome. Cant wait to start reading the posts and putting my views in on it all !I’ve thought about this actually. There’s over 2,208 ways to tell the story, but eventually, we will run out of new things to find out. It’s sad haha.
Digitized and searchable archives of a number of New York papers are available at no cost through the Library of Congress web site, Chronicling America « Library of Congress . Others', such as The New York Times', require a subscription.I could go and dig around some 1912 newspaper clippings in a dusty archive of one of their libraries
PPS forgot to mention there are other connections to Liverpool I forgot to mention which you may have researched. The two bands on the Titanic, their agents were Blacks of Liverpool, who didnt pay very well and took over from White Star employing them directly, they had to travel as second class passengers and werent official crew members. Something also - related to the compensation issue in general but specifically for the musicians on the Titanic - about this leading to disputes about who should pay compensation for the surviving spouses and family of the band: White Star Line, Blacks or the insurance company with all passing the buck one to the other - trying to recall its in 'the Night Lives on' by Walter Lord which Ive send to Rebecca my daughter PPS I dont research my replies here - all of the top of my head !Thank you Harland. Im very good at research and assimilation of huge amounts of information rapidly as its my professional job to do so so Im relishing the prospects of getting stuck into some research. Yes I'll go to the University of Liverpool when I am back home to check out and see what I can find on the following. I'll write to them in advance so I am well prepared for what to do when I get there. I'd still love to go and park myself in a New York library for an afternoon, just for the experience reading through newspaper clippings from the time and taking heaps of sneaky photos on my Android so I can post them later !
"The second area is the claims made against White Star in Britain. We have great details about the four initial cases brought to court in 1912. White Star was found liable for damages and lost on appeal. We know that other people then made claims out of court, but who they were and what they received are mysteries. Records may have been destroyed when White Star joined Cunard."
Its my birthday today 27 February and I awoke to a Titanic documentary on Youtube !
PS do you a book available on your research on the Titanic. I'd love to read it if so.
Hi its not a theory it is fact well according to Walter Lord and he really is the only person I rely on for facts about the Titanic. She saw the flares for absolute sure but, here's the thing, various members of her crew saw them throughout the night including her officers on the bridge and - trying to remember here - one of the engine room staff maybe on a night shift who went on to the decks for a smoke - but the captain of the Californian - cant remember his name but I dont like him anyway ! - who had retired to sleep but couldnt sleep, ignored the warnings not just once but repeatedly. The crew thought variously the ship was sailing away as she sank because the lights appeared to be indicating - not sure of the term here - receding maybe - an optical illusion - dont forget Californian was 10 miles distant - so nothing to worry about; wondered why she was setting off flares, entertainment for her passengers perhaps, although it is maritime international practice at the time that flares set off indicate a ship in distress; they saw the flares from Carpathia but remember that was after Titanic had sunk. This is what I cant understand, Californian had come to a complete stop as was stuck in the ice field, but could have come to Titanics rescue by forcing her way slowly through the ice field - she was only some 10 miles distant. Cant remember it - its all in 'the night lives on' : something along those lines anyway. Somewhere in this is attempts to contact the Titanic using morse code - cant remember does anyone know about this ?Well, Sam, this is not a theory IMO. It is the fact that was discussed back in 1912.