No Excuse for Capt Lord's Inaction

Jim Currie

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I don't know about all this - perhaps I am missing something obvious?

If Captain Lord could have worked out his DR stopped position on the back of his match box used to light his pipe in a few minutes or quicker, or worked it out in his head then I presume this was because he was a course due west or near enough due west?

The other available primary source evidence is that Captain Smith could not do this calculation in his head, and even when he had wrote out Titanic's CQD position got it wrong. Boxhall also got the position wrong.

Rostron got his DR course to Titanic's CQD wrong and despite getting it wrong still thought he was in the correct Boxhall CQD position despite him obviously (with hindsight) not being in Boxhall's CQD position. He also clearly got his speed wildly wrong after altering course for the CQD position.

There is some evidence that also Captain Moore got his navigation wrong on his rescue attempt.

So I pose again why was Captain Lord so perfect in his navigation that evening and night, when all the other key players got it wrong to a greater or lesser degree?

The corroboration of The Antillian ice warning message of bergs seen sent by The Californian is hidden in the depths of the British Inquiry and the evidence of George Turnball, Deputy Manager of Marconi in the UK. Plus it is generally assumed that The Parisian (on the same course as The Californian) and an hour or so ahead saw exactly the same icebergs that The Californian did as reported to The Antillian and Titanic by Evans on The Californian. In respect of such important corroboration as came from The Parisian, it may be that too many assumptions have been made? (Plus of course assuming that The Parisian's navigation was as 'perfect' as The Californian's!)

On a separate matter I accept on the above posts of Sam and Jim that Captain Lord did not have to go down to the chart room and spent 10 - 15 minutes to work out the DR stopped position of The Californian, though it did take the slow and plodding Boxhill some time to work out his own faulty and inaccurate CQD position and Boxhall certainly could not do this quickly in his head or on the back of a fag packet or back of an envelope.

I agree with Jim that even though Captain Lord would not have known beforehand where The Antillian was, having got wireless contact he would have supplied the info to The Antillian as not only a ship of his own line, but also a ship he had previously commanded, and no doubt he was familiar with it's officers and many of it's crew.

The associated point I have made a number of times that this message to The Antillian was also sent at the same time to Titanic as Turnball's detailed evidence shows plus Bride being recalled (Bride admitted he did not respond initially because he was writing up his accounts at the time).

Cheers,

Julian
Hello Julian.
Actually, any Navigator who knew his ship's hourly change of latitude and longitude on a constant course could work that out in his head.
Captain Smith was no exception to the Rule. Nor were any of the captains or their Navigators that fateful night.
During his BBC interview in 1962, Boxhall said Captain Smith used the 8 pm DR as the basis for his CQD position calculation, but the ship was 20 miles too far ahead of that 8 pm DR and therefore it was 20 miles in error. Captain Smith put the ship 20 miles too far ahead in his calculation. In fact, if Boxhall had been correct, Smith would have placed the ship, 20 miles astern of where she really was. I suspect, like me, Boxhall's memory was playing tricks with him. However, Smith was not responsible for the 8 pm DR. 3rd Officer Pitman, as Senior navigator of the 6 pm to 8 pm Watch had that privilege. Smith simply used what was written in the Scrap Log Book.
Captain Rostron likewise depended on his Navigating Officer to provide him with a 12-30 am DR position for Carpathia. However, that man did not explain why his ship was farther east than it should have been at 4 am that morning. Nor did he, later, offer any explanation but simply lied about the navigation skills of Boxhall.
Captain Moore did the obvious: he created confusion to cover up something...I know-not what but have my suspicions.
In his evidence, he was vague about where his ship was when he got the first distress call. he was also vague about where his ship crossed the 50th meridian...41-20'north or 41-15'North. as I pointed out to you before, he never gave an exact position to his questioners...the best he could do was a longitude which was only a position line.

Evans never attempted to deliberately contact Titanic before 1 pm that night. When he contacted "Antillian". Titanic heard him and called the Californian. The ships exchanged "Time Rushes" (contact data) and Evans offered Titanic the ice warning he had given to Antillian. Titanic said they had already heard it.

In my opinion, Boxhall. in his anxiety and the drama of the moment, simply assumed the wrong speed and runtime when working his DR position. He used a time of 11-45 pm when he should have used a time of 11-40 pm. He used 22 knots when he should have used about 22.4 knots. He eitherr assumed that the full clcok set back had been made before impact or assumed that the recorded time did not account for a partial set back of 24 minutes and double compensated for that. it is, however, significant that the man was so confident of the accuracy of his work, that when he died, he had his ashes scattered on that very spot...before the wreck was discovered.
 

Mike Spooner

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The The point is that without a doubt Californian was closest?
That is a bone of content. As Titanic and Californian as crew members of both ships could a ship about 5-6 miles away and both Morse coded to the ship with no reply. But unfortunately the two inquiries refused to believe the professional sea men statements. One can see in the inquires the legal professionals, at times seem to know more about marine matters that the experience sea men did! This is one of the reason why second officer Charles Lightroller consider the inquires as a white washing exercised in a temp to shift the blame else were. Where poor Captain Lord was used as the scapegoat and never got a fair trail to put his case forward how was it possible to reach the Titanic in time to save the 1500 lives. Which was impossible and no doubt as been discussed many times over.
Politics can be a dirty business at times!

Mike.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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perhaps I am missing something obvious?
Yes, the obvious point that I was making is that Lord thought, for whatever reason, that was important enough to send an MSG ice warning saying that he passed 3 large icebergs up in latitude 42°N to Antillian who was far to the south on an eastbound tract (more than 60 miles southward) than the westbound track Californian was on. Yet to Titanic, which was on a westbound track but only a relatively few miles further south than Californian, Lord didn't think it was important enough to send an MSG warning that he was forced to stop because of this vast field of pack ice that was stretching from the north to the south as far as the eye could see.
Because the SS Antillian was a Company Vessel...simple!
So what. Many other captains of non White Star Line vessels sent MSG ice warning to Capt. Smith that Sunday.
During his BBC interview in 1962, Boxhall said Captain Smith used the 8 pm DR as the basis for his CQD position calculation, but the ship was 20 miles too far ahead of that 8 pm DR and therefore it was 20 miles in error.
So the story goes. I personally find it hard to believe that a 20 mile error was not recognized by someone. That's about an extra hour of steaming for a ship like Titanic. Boxhall said a lot of questionable things back in 1962 that were inconsistent with what he said in 1912 and 1913.
 

Mike Spooner

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Hi Jim,
I can see the Titanic story is full of SPECUATION: In forming of a theory or conjecture without evidence.
I put forward another theory why the 4th officer Boxhall got the navigation position wrong?
If the Titanic has 29 boilers and is only running on 20 boilers for the first few days. On the 13 April she lite up another 5 more boilers. This will take time to warm up for the right pressure and heat, some like 12 hours before coming on line. Now if Boxhall and other officers base the speed of Titanic on 20 boilers has not taken in account of the new lite boilers will have increased the speed. Therefore travelled further than planned!
I see will stick that story his navigation position was correct to his death. There again if I was in his shoes knowing a navigation mistake could of well resulted in the death of 1500. Would you own up!
I see in his will had requested his ashes are to be scattered over his reported SOS position! O dear there are 13 miles of course!

Mike.
 

Jim Currie

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Yes, the obvious point that I was making is that Lord thought, for whatever reason, that was important enough to send an MSG ice warning saying that he passed 3 large icebergs up in latitude 42°N to Antillian who was far to the south on an eastbound tract (more than 60 miles southward) than the westbound track Californian was on. Yet to Titanic, which was on a westbound track but only a relatively few miles further south than Californian, Lord didn't think it was important enough to send an MSG warning that he was forced to stop because of this vast field of pack ice that was stretching from the north to the south as far as the eye could see.

So what. Many other captains of non White Star Line vessels sent MSG ice warning to Capt. Smith that Sunday.

So the story goes. I personally find it hard to believe that a 20 mile error was not recognized by someone. That's about an extra hour of steaming for a ship like Titanic. Boxhall said a lot of questionable things back in 1962 that were inconsistent with what he said in 1912 and 1913.
Titanic was not "a few miles" south of the Stopped Californian at 11 pm Californian time, relative or otherwise. Lord had no idea how many miles separated the two vessels. As far as he and Evans knew, 100 miles. could have separated the vessels. (In fact, it was about 25 miles at 11pm).
All Lord could be sure of was that if she had not already passed to the south of Californian, Titanic's nearest approach to his location would be about 17 miles. He could also be sure that Titanic's Operator and any other Operators could hear Evans transmitting. it would be up to individuals to report the ice warning to their respective caoptains
Wireless traffic between Company vessels was then and up until the end of the WT era, a very common occurrence. Captains would exchange anything from greetings to information of all kinds, relevant and irrelevant. The same thing happened when Radio Telephony and eventually VHF became the norm between Company ships. Hence the huge number of channels and the regulation of the same for certain functions. What is it that you are suggesting here? That somehow, Lord and Evans concocted an ice warning message to Titanic to make Lord look less culpable? Really? If so, how on earth did these two conspirators know for certain that there was not a Wireless CV somewhere on a ship which would eventually surface to show that Californian was not transmitting at the time they claimed they were? After all, the interest in wireless logs did not stretch to times before Titanic hit the iceberg.
 

Jim Currie

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Hi Jim,
I can see the Titanic story is full of SPECUATION: In forming of a theory or conjecture without evidence.
I put forward another theory why the 4th officer Boxhall got the navigation position wrong?
If the Titanic has 29 boilers and is only running on 20 boilers for the first few days. On the 13 April she lite up another 5 more boilers. This will take time to warm up for the right pressure and heat, some like 12 hours before coming on line. Now if Boxhall and other officers base the speed of Titanic on 20 boilers has not taken in account of the new lite boilers will have increased the speed. Therefore travelled further than planned!
I see will stick that story his navigation position was correct to his death. There again if I was in his shoes knowing a navigation mistake could of well resulted in the death of 1500. Would you own up!
I see in his will had requested his ashes are to be scattered over his reported SOS position! O dear there are 13 miles of course!

Mike.
Hello Mike.

In fact, all the double ended boiler were on- line during the 4 to 8 evening Watch, April 14. However, the firemen were ordered to "ease firing". The fact that the clocks were to be set back by 47 minutes before Noon April 15, tells us that Captain Smith had no intention of increasing speed before Noon April 15.
Boxhall calculated the exact position of the ship just after 7-30 pm that evening. After he had done so, he would have calculated the exact distance between the last exact position at Noon that day and this new exact position. He would then divide that distance by the hours and minutes run between noon and the time of this new exact position.
This would give him the average speed of the ship between the two positions. We know that the average speed he got was less than 22 knots. Why do we know this? We know it because:
If the average speed had been 22 knots up until then, Boxhall would have used more than 22 knots from the last known exact position for calculating the distress position.
Why would he have used a greater speed without an increase in engine revolutions? Because as he rightly guessed:t "taking into consideration that it was smooth water and that there ought to have been a minimum of slip, I allowed 22 knots."
 

Julian Atkins

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Evans never attempted to deliberately contact Titanic before 1 pm that night. When he contacted "Antillian". Titanic heard him and called the Californian. The ships exchanged "Time Rushes" (contact data) and Evans offered Titanic the ice warning he had given to Antillian. Titanic said they had already heard it.
Hi Jim,

I have had an opportunity today to review all of the George Turnball and Harold Bride testimony at the British Inquiry on days 13 and 14 (22nd and 23rd May 1912).

Turnball had The Californian's PV, and also lots of individual Marconi 'chits' with him. He read out the PV entry, then read out the Marconi 'chit'. As the Marconi file for The Californian is empty at The Bodleian Library in Oxford, Turnball's evidence of the individual Marconi 'chits' is very important. In each case the individual chits were handed to and examined by Counsel and Lord Mersey. (In respect of the Mesaba ice warning message this proved to be very interesting).

Bride was recalled.

His recollection on oath is most interesting on many levels. Let it be said clearly that Evans and Bride conflict in their evidence, and this is quite significant, because had Bride been clever enough, he could have avoided digging a big hole for himself. Evans had given his evidence 8 days earlier, and would have been widely reported in the daily newspapers. (It is also not improbable that Bride and Evans were in contact with one another directly).

Evans, either because he was an idiot, or because of some ploy of his own or the Marconi Company, states the ice warning message of 3 bergs seen etc was sent to the Antillian, and when later offered to Titanic Bride replied
"It is all right, I heard you sending it to the Antillian and I have got it" (8972)

However, Bride says the ice warning message from The Californian was first directed at Titanic (16365) "It was a message intended for me in the first place, but which I overheard afterwards"

(He gets the time NYT and AST mixed up, and thought the later repeat message was sent to the Baltic rather than the Antillian)

(16385) How do you know the message was for you? "Because The Californian had called me previously and said she had an ice report for me".

From (16663) onwards Bride repeats his account and that he heard the same ice report directed to Titanic repeated some 15-20 minutes later to another vessel.

The Marconi chit written out by Evans of the message to the Antillian is read out - being sent at 5.35 pm NYT.

The immediate previous PV entry written by Evans is also read out "5.20pm NYT, exchanged trs MGY nil" (this is the first time The Californian came into radio contact with Titanic ie within range of the wireless).

The 5.35pm NYT Antillian message Turnball agrees was about 7.30pm ships time (16190).

Bride agrees instead that the 5.20pm NYT earlier message would be 7.30pm ATS on Titanic (16736). Counsel completely misses the importance of this divergence from Turnball's evidence - as seen below - Bride goes for his meal at 7pm - in which case - as below - Bride was not writing up his accounts but completely absent from the Marconi room at 5.20pm NYT!!


Bride admits he ignored The Californian's ice message directed at Titanic (which included all the details same as sent 15 - 20 minutes later by Evans to the Antillian) because he was writing up his accounts (163910)

The implications of Bride ignoring an ice warning message were not lost on the British Inquiry!

Something odd then happens which the British Inquiry overlooks - Bride has gone for his meal at 7pm. He says for 20 - 30 minutes (though if it were me I would take the full 30 minutes). There is then a most extraordinary exchange that is very drawn out about how could Bride remember the time when he returned from his meal - as far as my reading of the transcript shows it is simply because Phillips got Cape Race around 8.30pm.

Sam has mentioned in his post 354, if I have understood Sam correctly, that Captain Japha's reply of 7pm AST from the Antillian is in Evan's pencilled handwriting. As The Bodleian Marconi folder for The Californian is empty, and none of the actual documents written by Evans have survived, might I suggest instead this is the Antillian's Marconi operator's record ?

I think Evans should have been recalled after Bride's evidence. He kept very poor records compared to those of Adams (Mesaba) and Durrant (Mount Temple). I also think that had Captain Japha's reply been recorded by Evans, it would have been read out at the British Inquiry - which it was not.

Clearly Evans ought to have recorded it as it was signed by Captain Japha, and Adams on Mesaba makes exactly this same point waiting for a reply from Captain Smith instead of "Rd. Tks." [received thanks] from whoever was the Marconi operator on duty at the time on Titanic at 7.50 NYT on the Mesaba (clearly Phillips by then).

Anyway, hope the above is of interest.

(I have avoided the usual practice of quoting great big chunks of Inquiry testimony above but have instead supplied the salient points having written it all out extensively in my notes, and supplied the references so that any one can look at them and decide whether my 'salient points' are accurate or not).

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Julian Atkins

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Just to add to the above, Bride had agreed to relieve Phillips at 12 midnight on Titanic on the 14th, because Phillips was exhausted...

Query - who manned the Marconi set when Bride went for his meal at 7pm on the 14th? Unless I have missed something obvious again!

Happy to be shot down in respect of all the above!

Cheers,

Julian
 

Mike Spooner

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In fact, all the double ended boiler were on- line during the 4 to 8 evening Watch, April 14. However, the firemen were ordered to "ease firing". The fact that the clocks were to be set back by 47 minutes before Noon April 15, tells us that Captain Smith had no intention of increasing speed before Noon April 15.
Boxhall calculated the exact position of the ship just after 7-30 pm that evening. After he had done so, he would have calculated the exact distance between the last exact position at Noon that day and this new exact position. He would then divide that distance by the hours and minutes run between noon and the time of this new exact position.
This would give him the average speed of the ship between the two positions. We know that the average speed he got was less than 22 knots. Why do we know this? We know it because:
If the average speed had been 22 knots up until then, Boxhall would have used more than 22 knots from the last known exact position for calculating the distress position.
Why would he have used a greater speed without an increase in engine revolutions? Because as he rightly guessed:t "taking into consideration that it was smooth water and that there ought to have been a minimum of slip, I allowed 22 knots."
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the reply. Here is another theory: There seem to talk of Titanic is making better progress than Olympic did on her maiden crossing. But the different is Titanic is having a smoother crossing therefore gaining more miles per day?
I know you have looked into this before under the Can of Worms and cant remember if you had come any conclusion of the navigation error? By the way I am still find it difficult to find your book to read. Is it still In print?

Mike.
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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Query - who manned the Marconi set when Bride went for his meal at 7pm on the 14th? Unless I have missed something obvious again!
Phillips. The W/Os did not keep specific hours on and off. Only during nighttime hours were specific times kept as agreed to among themselves according to Bride. (16333-16338) Usually, 8pm to 2am was worked by Philips, and from 2am to 8am was worked by Bride. By the way, going west, there was an extra 45 to 48 minutes extra added in between those times. I believe Phillips would have awakened Bride about 20-25 minutes before 2am so they could have shared the extra time.

By the way, if you haven't figured it out yet, Bride was not a very good witness, at one point prompting the following exchange:

"The Commissioner: What is this material to?
16624. (The Solicitor-General.) It is not very material except that one likes to be satisfied we have got hold of the same gentleman who gave evidence in America."
 
M

Mila

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Hello Mila,

There is most certainly a way of knowing if there were currents in the area and the Carpathia is the best example of this.

If she had encountered a south setting current on her way to the rescue, she would have been set south and a little west by it and arrived at the eastern hard edge of the ice barrier, well to the south of where she met with Boxhall in boat 2. Instead, she was set to the east-noreastward.
Hi Jim,
I was trying to explain that if Carpathia for example encountered northeastern currents, it does not mean that Californian encountered the same one. Carpathia was outside cold water tongue, Californian was inside it.
 

Julian Atkins

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Hi Jim,

I have had an opportunity today to review all of the George Turnball and Harold Bride testimony at the British Inquiry on days 13 and 14 (22nd and 23rd May 1912).

Turnball had The Californian's PV, and also lots of individual Marconi 'chits' with him. He read out the PV entry, then read out the Marconi 'chit'. As the Marconi file for The Californian is empty at The Bodleian Library in Oxford, Turnball's evidence of the individual Marconi 'chits' is very important. In each case the individual chits were handed to and examined by Counsel and Lord Mersey. (In respect of the Mesaba ice warning message this proved to be very interesting).

Bride was recalled.

His recollection on oath is most interesting on many levels. Let it be said clearly that Evans and Bride conflict in their evidence, and this is quite significant, because had Bride been clever enough, he could have avoided digging a big hole for himself. Evans had given his evidence 8 days earlier, and would have been widely reported in the daily newspapers. (It is also not improbable that Bride and Evans were in contact with one another directly).

Evans, either because he was an idiot, or because of some ploy of his own or the Marconi Company, states the ice warning message of 3 bergs seen etc was sent to the Antillian, and when later offered to Titanic Bride replied
"It is all right, I heard you sending it to the Antillian and I have got it" (8972)

However, Bride says the ice warning message from The Californian was first directed at Titanic (16365) "It was a message intended for me in the first place, but which I overheard afterwards"

(He gets the time NYT and AST mixed up, and thought the later repeat message was sent to the Baltic rather than the Antillian)

(16385) How do you know the message was for you? "Because The Californian had called me previously and said she had an ice report for me".

From (16663) onwards Bride repeats his account and that he heard the same ice report directed to Titanic repeated some 15-20 minutes later to another vessel.

The Marconi chit written out by Evans of the message to the Antillian is read out - being sent at 5.35 pm NYT.

The immediate previous PV entry written by Evans is also read out "5.20pm NYT, exchanged trs MGY nil" (this is the first time The Californian came into radio contact with Titanic ie within range of the wireless).

The 5.35pm NYT Antillian message Turnball agrees was about 7.30pm ships time (16190).

Bride agrees instead that the 5.20pm NYT earlier message would be 7.30pm ATS on Titanic (16736). Counsel completely misses the importance of this divergence from Turnball's evidence - as seen below - Bride goes for his meal at 7pm - in which case - as below - Bride was not writing up his accounts but completely absent from the Marconi room at 5.20pm NYT!!


Bride admits he ignored The Californian's ice message directed at Titanic (which included all the details same as sent 15 - 20 minutes later by Evans to the Antillian) because he was writing up his accounts (163910)

The implications of Bride ignoring an ice warning message were not lost on the British Inquiry!

Something odd then happens which the British Inquiry overlooks - Bride has gone for his meal at 7pm. He says for 20 - 30 minutes (though if it were me I would take the full 30 minutes). There is then a most extraordinary exchange that is very drawn out about how could Bride remember the time when he returned from his meal - as far as my reading of the transcript shows it is simply because Phillips got Cape Race around 8.30pm.

Sam has mentioned in his post 354, if I have understood Sam correctly, that Captain Japha's reply of 7pm AST from the Antillian is in Evan's pencilled handwriting. As The Bodleian Marconi folder for The Californian is empty, and none of the actual documents written by Evans have survived, might I suggest instead this is the Antillian's Marconi operator's record ?

I think Evans should have been recalled after Bride's evidence. He kept very poor records compared to those of Adams (Mesaba) and Durrant (Mount Temple). I also think that had Captain Japha's reply been recorded by Evans, it would have been read out at the British Inquiry - which it was not.

Clearly Evans ought to have recorded it as it was signed by Captain Japha, and Adams on Mesaba makes exactly this same point waiting for a reply from Captain Smith instead of "Rd. Tks." [received thanks] from whoever was the Marconi operator on duty at the time on Titanic at 7.50 NYT on the Mesaba (clearly Phillips by then).

Anyway, hope the above is of interest.

(I have avoided the usual practice of quoting great big chunks of Inquiry testimony above but have instead supplied the salient points having written it all out extensively in my notes, and supplied the references so that any one can look at them and decide whether my 'salient points' are accurate or not).

Cheers,

Julian
Bump!

I did a fair bit of research for the above post, and apart from Sam's reply have received no further reply!

Cheers,

Julian
 
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Phillips. The W/Os did not keep specific hours on and off. Only during nighttime hours were specific times kept as agreed to among themselves according to Bride. (16333-16338) Usually, 8pm to 2am was worked by Philips, and from 2am to 8am was worked by Bride. By the way, going west, there was an extra 45 to 48 minutes extra added in between those times. I believe Phillips would have awakened Bride about 20-25 minutes before 2am so they could have shared the extra time.

By the way, if you haven't figured it out yet, Bride was not a very good witness, at one point prompting the following exchange:

"The Commissioner: What is this material to?
16624. (The Solicitor-General.) It is not very material except that one likes to be satisfied we have got hold of the same gentleman who gave evidence in America."
Another bit of trivia, possibly.
From what I have read on these forums, it seems the officer's watch routine was " 4 on, 4 off".
At least, as far as Phillips and Bride were concerned, theirs was "6 on, 6 off" .
They probably had the liberty of just working this out between the two of them.
 

Jim Currie

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Bump!

I did a fair bit of research for the above post, and apart from Sam's reply have received no further reply!

Cheers,

Julian
Hello Julian,

Have had to be selective recently...matches my memory, but here goes:

I too have had another look at Turnbull's evidence you will notice the following:
16044....- The operator transcribes everything he does from the beginning of the voyage until the end of a voyage on a procès-verbal , and in addition to that he transcribes all messages sent and received upon special sent and received forms which are drawn up for the purpose; so that we have the procès-verbal , which is a log of the work done during the voyage, and we have the official records of the telegrams on special forms. These are all returned to the head office when the ship returns to port.
16047. Had you got in your office, and I think you have brought here, the procès-verbal of the "La Touraine" of the of the 12th April?
- Yes, we have an extract from the procès-verbal ...
16048.The "Caronia" of the 14th? - Yes.
16049. The "Amerika" of the 14th?- Yes, we have; those arrived this morning.
16050. The "Baltic" of the 14th?- Yes.
16051. The "Californian" of the 14th?- Yes.
16052. And the "Mesaba" of the 14th? - Yes, we have. I am not absolutely certain whether we have the "La Touraine" procès-verbal.

The foregoing suggests to me that Turnbull had extracts from each of the named vessels. But brought copies of the Oficial Messages. He says so:
"16053. - But we have the official messages, Sir."

As you say, Evans kept better records but what happened to the unofficial first indication that something had happened to Titanic? The first message containing Captain Smith's distress position which was passed by Evans to his Captain.

In his defense: I must point out that Bride was must have been suffering from a strong mix of guilt and what we know today as PTSD.
I also think that Mr. Marconi did not want to miss such a golden opportunity to advance his dominance of the marine wireless world so might just have done a little "polishing" of Company sources.

Got to go...other "fish" frying as I write. Talk to you later.

Regards.



.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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At least, as far as Phillips and Bride were concerned, theirs was "6 on, 6 off" .
They probably had the liberty of just working this out between the two of them.
That was only during their nighttime hours Robert. There were no set times during the daytime hours between 8am to 8pm. The deck crew on the other hand stood 4 on/4 off day and night with the exception of the two dog watches (4 to 6 and 6 to 8pm) which were 2 on/2 off to shift things around from day today.
 

David Webster

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Regulation distress socket signals that were supplied to steamships in 1912 typically went as high as 500 to 600 ft up (although one advertisement by Cotton Powder Co said 600-800 ft). According to Boxhall, Carpathia was firing what he called regulation socket signals that he notice from the boat about 45 minutes before being picked up. We know these signals were seen from the bridge of Californian as well as Evans messaging that that they were firing rockets at that time because his 'we are firing rockets' message was picked up by Mount Temple and Coronia about that time.

As far as the rules were concerned, even today there is ambiguity as to how often they should be sent up.
In 1912, the wording was: “Rockets or shells throwing stars of any colour or description, fired one at a time at short intervals.”
The current wording is: "Rockets or shells, throwing red stars fired one at a time at short intervals."

Although the words were changed to say red stars, the wording continues to say 'short intervals' which is a very subjective term. The every minute business applies only to the firing of guns or other explosive devices used to attract attention by sound.

When Stone was being questioned about what he saw that night:
8027. I suppose before you sat for that examination, you read something about signals? - I learned them.
8028. Do you mean to tell his Lordship that you did not know that the throwing up of “rockets or shells, throwing stars of any colour or description, fired one at a time at short intervals,” is the proper method for signaling distress at night? - Yes, that is the way it is always done as far as I know.
8029. And you knew that perfectly well on the night of the 14th of April? - Yes.
The Commissioner: And is not that exactly what was happening?
8030. (Mr. Scanlan.) You have heard my Lord put that question. That was what was happening? - Yes.

Stones excuse for not recognizing these signals as distress signals was:

8031. (The Commissioner.) The very thing was happening that you knew indicated distress? - If that steamer had stayed on the same bearing after showing these rockets -
8032. No, do not give a long answer of that kind. Is it not the fact that the very thing was happening which you had been taught indicated distress? - Yes.
8033. (Mr. Scanlan.) You knew it meant distress? - I knew that rockets shown at short intervals, one at a time, meant distress signals, yes.
8034. Do not speak generally. On that very night when you saw those rockets being sent up you knew, did you not, that those rockets were signals of distress? - No.
8035. (The Commissioner.) Now do think about what you are saying. You have just told me that what you saw from that steamer was exactly what you had been taught to understand were signals of distress. You told me so? - Yes.
8036. Well is it true? - It is true that similar lights are distress signals, yes.
8037. Then you had seen them from this steamer? - A steamer that is in distress does not steam away from you, my Lord.
8038. You saw these before this steamer steamed away from you? - I saw them at the same time the ship started to alter her bearings.
8039. (Mr. Scanlan.) But for a long time while this ship was stationary like your own, you noticed at frequent intervals that she was sending up rocket after rocket? - No.
8040. I thought that you told my learned friend that you had counted the rockets. Here is what you said. You said you had not your binoculars when the first rocket went up and you did not see the stars. Then you took your binoculars and you saw two other rockets and in each case you saw stars? - Yes.
8041. Did not those come in fairly quick succession one after another? - Yes.
8042. What do you mean by saying that you did not see them coming in quick succession one after another? - I said that the ship was altering her bearing from the time she showed her first rocket; she commenced altering her bearing by the compass.

He also was asked:
8048. When did you send word to the Captain that you noticed her steaming away.
8049. (The Commissioner.) It is 2 o’clock? - At 10 minutes past 1. I reported to the Master that she was altering her bearings, which was the same thing.

This was also claimed by Lord when he testified at the US hearings and later on. Yet we according to Gibson, who came topside after Stone reported to Lord, that the red sidelight of the steamer under observation that was firing these rockets did not disappear until after the 7th rocket was seen.

Someone or someones were lying.
One thing I know for sure is that the perps of this insurance scam didn`t do their homework re end game rescue. Lots of loose ends left to Parkinsons Law. It wouldn`t have hurt to wander on down toward where Lord knew the Titanic would be in the general direction of the white rockets. After all, he had not much else to do with his time with (reportably) zero passengers and only a cargo of woolen blankets. I can understand overlooking the flare detail when you are on an "unsinkable" ship .but in light of what was at stake, you`d think they`d get their signals straight. I`d say Lord was guilty if only because he was in collusion with the insurance scam involving the Olympic. Had he been given a chance to "clear his name" and reopen the case later on in life,I think the entire truth would have come out,and they all would have gone to jail,including the Judge.
 
May 3, 2005
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That was only during their nighttime hours Robert. There were no set times during the daytime hours between 8am to 8pm. The deck crew on the other hand stood 4 on/4 off day and night with the exception of the two dog watches (4 to 6 and 6 to 8pm) which were 2 on/2 off to shift things around from day today.
Samuel -
Thanks again !
Without going into any details , it's beginning to sink in just how "non - reg " we were in my brief Navy service. :-(
We also had the advantage of having not just two persons on duty while at sea.
We had twelve in our Division according to records I kept in a little notebook when I was in charge.



So this following is just in one more case of this comment from this non-sailor and opinion of 2019 vs. 1912 hind sight.
It seems to me that since Evans had said he had only been working Titanic , Titanic seemed to be very close , and he knew Titanic would have an operator on duty 24/7 , the next logical thing to do after not having any luck with the Morse Lamp would be to try to call Titanic to see if they had any information on rockets being seen anywhere . It seems to me that is a case of negligence on the part of Californian.
Again a case of twenty-first century hindsight from this contributor .
 

Harland Duzen

Member
Jan 14, 2017
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One thing I know for sure is that the perps of this insurance scam didn`t do their homework re end game rescue. Lots of loose ends left to Parkinsons Law. It wouldn`t have hurt to wander on down toward where Lord knew the Titanic would be in the general direction of the white rockets. After all, he had not much else to do with his time with (reportably) zero passengers and only a cargo of woolen blankets. I can understand overlooking the flare detail when you are on an "unsinkable" ship .but in light of what was at stake, you`d think they`d get their signals straight. I`d say Lord was guilty if only because he was in collusion with the insurance scam involving the Olympic. Had he been given a chance to "clear his name" and reopen the case later on in life,I think the entire truth would have come out,and they all would have gone to jail,including the Judge.
Hello David Webster,

Firstly welcome to ET!

Secondly, We currently don't have any evidence of what cargo the Californian was carrying during her Westbound Titanic Voyage, other than it was a "Miscellaneous Cargo". although we know what she carried on her Eastbound trip to Liverpool and can make an assumption based on this and the cargo carried by another ship, The Armenian.
(, see Californian's cargo and Post #66 by Paul Slish, published on December 8th 2006 AND Post #71 by Paul Slish, published on December 9th 2006).

Lastly, There is no evidence that the Olympic or Titanic were switched or that any Insurance Scam was attempted by the White Star Line (See The Titanic 'Switch' Theory: Exposed).

Hope this helps.