No spare keys?

Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
Continue with your nasty comments and I will complain to the Moderator.
Oh how petty! Please go ahead. You are the one who started it by stating that I was making a fool of myself. My comment was certainly not as nasty as yours.

I am also an experienced overland and marine photographer and know a bit more about optics than what your patronizing remarks suggest.

I did not suggest - never have - that binoculars would have saved the Titanic. But what I do say is that there are instances where they could make a difference and there was no reason not to provide them in the Crow's Nest. In fact, as we all know, they were originally there but went missing due to certain circumstances.
 
Jason D. Tiller

Jason D. Tiller

Staff member
Moderator
Member
Moderator's hat on:

Everyone, please take a deep breath and calm down. There is no need for nastiness or personal attacks - it is not the way to have a constructive debate here. Attack the points that the other person is making, not the person making them.

Moderator's hat off
 
Dr. Ajmal Dar

Dr. Ajmal Dar

Member
Oh how petty! Please go ahead. You are the one who started it by stating that I was making a fool of myself. My comment was certainly not as nasty as yours.

I am also an experienced overland and marine photographer and know a bit more about optics than what your patronizing remarks suggest.

I did not suggest - never have - that binoculars would have saved the Titanic. But what I do say is that there are instances where they could make a difference and there was no reason not to provide them in the Crow's Nest. In fact, as we all know, they were originally there but went missing due to certain circumstances.
I am a Doctorate Chemist since 1986 from Manchester University in the UK. It is a top-flight University and part of the much revered Russel Group of Universities. I have been studying various forms of Spectroscopy since the start of my career. Spectroscopy is heavily dependent on Optics, which I have studied and used in great detail.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
I am a Doctorate Chemist since 1986 from Manchester University in the UK. It is a top-flight University and part of the much revered Russel Group of Universities. I have been studying various forms of Spectroscopy since the start of my career. Spectroscopy is heavily dependent on Optics, which I have studied and used in great detail.
Well done. And I have been a doctor since 1978 and worked in Radiology and Anaesthetics (Anaesthesiology to our American friends) before switching to General Practice. I have been an amateur photographer for over 40 years and also done a lot of underwater photography during my scuba diving years - they are on Flickr if you are interested. I am also interested in optics and have done a course in fibroptic endoscopy.

While I don't like to blow my own trumpet, I am not exactly a village idiot.
 
Jason D. Tiller

Jason D. Tiller

Staff member
Moderator
Member
Moderator's hat on:
Prove you have these qualifications. Until you do, no-one will believe you.
Arun doesn't have to prove anything to you and that is not what this thread is about. If you still want to continue this, then please take it to private messaging, but there is no place for it in the forums.

I will not warn you again.

Moderator's hat off
 
Seumas

Seumas

Member
Just something that I was genuinely thinking about earlier today. Why didn't they make any spare keys for the Titanic? As we all know, David Blair accidentally took the keys to the binoculars with him after he got reassigned to another ship. So, if there were spare keys to the binoculars, it only makes sense that it would shut down the debate on whether or not the binoculars would have helped the lookouts see the iceberg earlier. And even if it didn't help, spare keys for the gates and cabins could have helped in letting more people escape the ship and get into the lifeboats in time. It's common sense. So, why no spares?
What gates ?

There were only two of the Bostwick Gates that we often see depicted in the films, one low down in the bow to prevent passenger access to the cargo holds (and this would have been underwater quite early on) and another further up aft to prevent passenger access to the ship's massive food and drink stores. It doesn't matter what is depicted in film and tv productions, there as simply no big grid of locked gates in third class as popular imagination would have it.

Regarding cabins, no-one was locked in.

Passengers were not given keys to their cabins, The bedroom stewards had the keys to their allocated cabins. It's also a possibility that the chief steward of each class or the purser may have had master keys. There was no need for the navigating officers to have anything to do with the passengers or their accommodation. In any event, the doors to the cabins were not very thick, and an average sized man could have forced one open by putting his shoulder to it.

Once again, forget what you have seen depicted in the films.
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
It doesn't matter what is depicted in film and tv productions, there as simply no big grid of locked gates in third class as popular imagination would have it. Once again, forget what you have seen depicted in the films.
Precisely. They depicted those big grid locked gates in films simply for maximum cinematic effect. With the camera outside those gates the viewer can then see the large crowd of angry and panicking passengers pressing against the bars on the inside, thus heightening the trapped feeling. In reality, there were no such scenes. Over 80% of Third Class Stewards died in the sinking.
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
There were only two of the Bostwick Gates that we often see depicted in the films, one low down in the bow to prevent passenger access to the cargo holds (and this would have been underwater quite early on) and another further up aft to prevent passenger access to the ship's massive food and drink stores.
I hate to be nitpicking my friend, but I discovered a few interesting matters on the gate's of the Olympic and possibly the Titanic as well. There is this general arrangement plan from the Olympic, dated October 1911 (which even has Thomas Andrews Jr his professorial TA signature which he used at the shipyard), which indicates there were a few more Bostwick gates on E-deck, however it isn't in places where you would expect them.
1663860611318

Outside the ones we know of already as mentioned by Seamas there were two in first class, which separated the E-deck lift lobby and the E-deck landing of the forward Louis XIV staircase from the corridor (The first class staterooms on E-deck could be arranged as second class staterooms if the demand for second class was too high, this never happened on the Titanic however )
1663860414903

And there were two more in third class/a crew area near the long working passageway (also known as Scotland Road) which blocked off the third class dining saloon from the long working passageway. I try to get screenshots of this plan and also to cut the section I need, however for as the moment I've been unsuccessful. However, none of these gates would have gotten in the way of the third class passengers during the sinking. These gates were still present on the Olympic in August 1912.

From the evidence there is it appears the biggest physical obstacle were the two exterior gates leading from the aft well deck on C-deck to the second class promenade on B-deck.
Regarding cabins, no-one was locked in.
I wish I could say this was true, but some first class passengers actually managed to get locked in their staterooms (at least one of them is confirmed to have been locked in). First we have John Bertram Crafton (1853-1912), who most likely was in D-14 based on some evidence I found, who was either trapped by the door being locked or because the door just refused to open according to Frederic Kimber Seward (1878-1943), Martha Stephenson (1860-1934) and Richard Norris Williams (1891-1968). The later of three ultimately putted his shoulder into the door to break it open until a steward came by who appeared to have warned both Williams for the damage he had done to the property of his company as well as treating Mr. Crafton. Sadly, Mr. Crafton wasn't among the 712 survivors and his identity was only confirmed by Frederic Seward. Then lastly of the known examples we have Victorine Chaudanson (1875-1962), the maid of Mrs. Ryerson. It is described as followed:
Victorine, the Ryersons’ French maid, had an even more disturbing experience. She found her cabin still dry, but as she rummaged about, she heard a key turn, and suddenly realized the steward was locking the stateroom door to prevent looting. Her shriek was just in time to keep him from locking her in. Without stretching her luck any further, she dashed back on deck empty-handed
I haven't traced the source yet, except that it is possible she told Walter Lord so (considering it's mentioned in his book "A Night To Remember") Despite what her page says it is believed that Victorine Chaudanson was in B-79 (which wasn't the stateroom of the maid of the Countess of Rothes since she was in C-77, not B-77).
 
Seumas

Seumas

Member
I hate to be nitpicking my friend, but I discovered a few interesting matters on the gate's of the Olympic and possibly the Titanic as well. There is this general arrangement plan from the Olympic, dated October 1911 (which even has Thomas Andrews Jr his professorial TA signature which he used at the shipyard), which indicates there were a few more Bostwick gates on E-deck, however it isn't in places where you would expect them.
View attachment 110748
Outside the ones we know of already as mentioned by Seamas there were two in first class, which separated the E-deck lift lobby and the E-deck landing of the forward Louis XIV staircase from the corridor (The first class staterooms on E-deck could be arranged as second class staterooms if the demand for second class was too high, this never happened on the Titanic however )
View attachment 110747
And there were two more in third class/a crew area near the long working passageway (also known as Scotland Road) which blocked off the third class dining saloon from the long working passageway. I try to get screenshots of this plan and also to cut the section I need, however for as the moment I've been unsuccessful. However, none of these gates would have gotten in the way of the third class passengers during the sinking. These gates were still present on the Olympic in August 1912.

From the evidence there is it appears the biggest physical obstacle were the two exterior gates leading from the aft well deck on C-deck to the second class promenade on B-deck.

I wish I could say this was true, but some first class passengers actually managed to get locked in their staterooms (at least one of them is confirmed to have been locked in). First we have John Bertram Crafton (1853-1912), who most likely was in D-14 based on some evidence I found, who was either trapped by the door being locked or because the door just refused to open according to Frederic Kimber Seward (1878-1943), Martha Stephenson (1860-1934) and Richard Norris Williams (1891-1968). The later of three ultimately putted his shoulder into the door to break it open until a steward came by who appeared to have warned both Williams for the damage he had done to the property of his company as well as treating Mr. Crafton. Sadly, Mr. Crafton wasn't among the 712 survivors and his identity was only confirmed by Frederic Seward. Then lastly of the known examples we have Victorine Chaudanson (1875-1962), the maid of Mrs. Ryerson. It is described as followed:

I haven't traced the source yet, except that it is possible she told Walter Lord so (considering it's mentioned in his book "A Night To Remember") Despite what her page says it is believed that Victorine Chaudanson was in B-79 (which wasn't the stateroom of the maid of the Countess of Rothes since she was in C-77, not B-77).
Those Bostwick Gates on the Olympic are interesting, Tom.

I certainly concede te possibility that they may have had the same arrangement on the Titanic but I'd want to see some written evidence (that's the big one for me) that they were actually installed on the Titanic. It's "not proven" for me otherwise. And as you say yourself, even if they were installed on the Titanic, they wouldn't have impeded anyone's escape, the OP appears to be under the impression (probably from the films) that these gates were at the end of almost every third class corridor, which you and I is not true.

The gates on the aft well deck appear to certainly do appear have been guarded early during the sinking by crewmen who in their defence probably had no idea what was going on but they don't seem to have been guarded the whole time. They weren't exactly formidable obstacles (I was climbing over gates bigger than that when I was kid) and with the large casualties to both third class passengers and their stewards it's a possibility they were utilised - just no one survived to tell the story.

With regard to the first class passenger allegedly locked in.

The collision seems to have done something to the doors or the door frames of a couple of cabins (or else mistakes had been made by the craftsmen during fitting out - no one's perfect, it does happen) but I would call that more wedged in than locked in. As I said in my post, a bit of shoulder to the door can still do the job. As you say, Norris proved that.
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
I certainly concede te possibility that they may have had the same arrangement on the Titanic but I'd want to see some written evidence (that's the big one for me) that they were actually installed on the Titanic. It's "not proven" for me otherwise. And as you say yourself, even if they were installed on the Titanic, they wouldn't have impeded anyone's escape, the OP appears to be under the impression (probably from the films) that these gates were at the end of almost every third class corridor, which you and I is not true.
Documented evidence on the Titanic her interior is a lot harder to find then one might think. Harland and Wolff implemented a policy in 1906 that nearly all documents focusing on a ship were destroyed after 20 years to avoid them piling up. The specification book of the Titanic sadly went down with the ship as well.


The evidence are that the Titanic her low detailed general arrangement plan shows markings of there being an undocumented gate, the Britannic her plans do exactly the same as does Olympic throughout her career and the Britannic. The Britannic her specification book lists as followed:

1663866205380
 
Arun Vajpey

Arun Vajpey

Member
First we have John Bertram Crafton (1853-1912), who most likely was in D-14 based on some evidence I found, who was either trapped by the door being locked or because the door just refused to open according to Frederic Kimber Seward (1878-1943), Martha Stephenson (1860-1934) and Richard Norris Williams (1891-1968). The later of three ultimately putted his shoulder into the door to break it open until a steward came by who appeared to have warned both Williams for the damage he had done to the property of his company as well as treating Mr. Crafton.
Almost all the accounts that I have read say that the door that Richard Williams forced open was jammed rather then locked.
Similar problems have been speculated for Ann Isham in C-49 but as far as is known there were several survivors (including Gracie) from that area and no one reported locked or jammed doors. Moreover, the steward (probably Charles Cullen) who spoke to a lady First Class passenger who refused to wear her life vest and go up, instead going back to bed. That might have been Isham.
 
Thomas Krom

Thomas Krom

Member
Almost all the accounts that I have read say that the door that Richard Williams forced open was jammed rather then locked.
Hence why I only referred to being certain about Miss Chaudanson being locked in her stateroom. I only mentioned the incident since Mr. Crafton got trapped in his stateroom
 
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