Occupancy of Lifeboats dictated by time

[Ashley Regan]

Sorry all for that awful title. What I am referring to is a comment made by Colonel Gracie:

"Just then someone pointed out that a group of men were trying to take over Boat 2. Second Officer Lightoller jumped into the boat and
threatened them with his empty gun driving them all out. With the help of Gracie and Smith they were able to load 36 women and
children into this boat, and it was lowered at 1:45 under the command of Fourth Officer Joseph Boxhall. It was the fifteenth boat to
leave the Titanic and contained 20 people although its maximum capacity was 40. The lifeboat needed to travel only 15 feet to reach
the water. In normal circumstances it would have been 70 feet. "

The second to last line is what I found of interest he mentions how low in the water the ship was when laoded with 20 people, could this be why the boats were'nt filled to capacity? Was the ship getting so low in the water that the officers were afraid that if they didn't launch them now maybe they never would?

Sorry if this question has already been answered, but I'm reading with fascination though this site and reading this passage made me wonder why the lifeboats really nver got a full occupancy that night,...perhaps this was why?

Ashley Regan

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Ashley said "Sorry if this question has already been answered, but I'm reading with fascination though this site and reading this passage made me wonder why the lifeboats really nver got a full occupancy that night,...perhaps this was why?"

Rather controversial stuff, even in 1912. At first, there were two considerations. One being the assertion made by some of the officers...particularly Lightoller...that it would be dangerous to launch a boat fully loaded. The concern was that the boat may not be strong enough to carry the load.

The problem with this one is that the boats had been tested at full load and it was established that they could be safely launched that way. The question that goes begging is whether or not the officers knew of these tests. Opinions vary on this, but hard facts will likely be impossible to establish. It seems hard to believe that they didn't know of these tests, but then miscommunication happens all the time in the maritime world. I know this from first hand experience.

Second problem; Convincing people of the danger and getting them into the boats to begin with. Put yourself in the position of a pampered society lady who is being asked to take her chances in a cold open boat in the middle of the North Atlantic at night. She sees a yawning blackness all the way down with no apparant bottom to the pit. Meanwhile, she is on a lrage ship which is warm, comfortable, "safe" (She thinks!) and surely there's something to the rumours that it's unsinkable.

Which would you choose?

The bottom line is that few people took the danger seriously when it mattered the most. When they did, it was too late.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[David G. Brown]

I have difficulty accepting Lightoller's (and Lowe's) arguments that the officers did not know the boats could be lowered when fully loaded. There are extant advertisements from nautical journals to the contrary. And, officers handling lifeboats that night had participated in tests involving a boat from Olympic being lowered with weight equal to 100% passenger loading. The boat passed the test. Everyone knew the boats could hold their full rated number of people while being lowered.

Lightolller and Lowe were hiding something by their bald-faced lie about fearing the boats would collapse. That something was that the underloading of early boats was due to the plan under which the evacuation was accomplished. It is significant that no general alarm was sounded at any time on Titanic. The lack of such an alarm meant that relatively few people ventured on deck--which was exactly the desired result.

Panic was the real problem...not the strength of the lifeboats. The evacuation plan instituted by Captain Smith on April 15 aboard Titanc accepted that early boats would be lowered with less than full capacity. This was the inevitable result of not sounding a general alarm.

Preventing panic continued to be a problem throughout the evening. The situation cited around boat #2 is an example. Lightoller was able to regain control essentially by enforcing the "women and children first" rule. The males stood back...but, what would have happened if the "no men" rule had been relaxed after the women were aboard? There would likely have been a rush of bodies--quite possibly more than the boat could hold. So, in my opinion Lightoller quite rightly acted to save some by denying others.

One undiscussed aspect of having enough lifeboats for everyone is that it mitigates against panic. There is no reason to rush for the few available seats if everyone has an assigned seat--and knows it. That's why boat drills. The whole exercise works to prevent panic.

I think it is significant that aboard Titanic people were urged to congregate in the public rooms where they felt secure. Music was provided in first class--a nice touch. Today, passengers are assembled in public spaces during boat drills. Only after they have mustered in familiar surroundings that appear "safe" are they taken to the boats where danger is obvious. This is partly crowd control, but it also prevents panic.

--David G. Brown

 

[Pat Cook]

Under the 'For What It's Worth' category, whenever I revisit the loading of the lifeboats, three things always pique my curiosity. Now, I realize this is speculation but, to me anyway, it does give food for thought.

The seriousness of the situation - Here we have that 'unbelieveability factor' enter in, as I believe you've mentioned. I believe in Walter Lord's ANTR he records Boxhall, even as he fired off the rockets, asking Captain Smith, "Is it really serious?" or words to that effect.

The Olympic/Hawke collision - this, I believe, really helped bolster up the 'unbelieveability factor', even among the officers; she was rammed by the Hawke and survived only a year before.

And finally, the Republic wreck - although there is no account (that I can find, anyway) of anyone recalling this event some 3 years earlier, I can't help but wonder did the officers reflect back on how those crew memebers loaded up such boats as they could to ferry them to another ship (The Florida, if memory serves) and return for more.

As you've mentioned here, I have no idea why Lowe and Lightoller testified about the worries in the 'buckling' of the boats, but I also cannot help but wonder if these officers recalled any of these three things, above, as I have.

Just an opinion here. Hope this wasn't already covered and I, blind as I am, missed it.

Best regards,
Cook

 

[Inger Sheil]

David, I have to take issue with the following statement:

I have difficulty accepting Lightoller's (and Lowe's) arguments that the officers did not know the boats could be lowered when fully loaded.

Scarrott testified that Lowe was skeptical about the amount of passengers #14 was loaded with when he approached it. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume he was lying.

 

[David G. Brown]

Inger-- Given the publicity afforded the new Welin davits, I'm skeptical of Lowe--even though Scarrott was probably accurate.

The information about the launching capacity of the lifeboats was widely known in 1911 and publicised. Perhaps Lowe did not know, but it doesn't seem likely to me. Junior officers are usually "up" on the latest developments before their seniors. It's part of the race for promotion.

However, although I have been accused of being old enough--I was not there. All I can do is surmise.

--David G. Brown

 

[Daniel Klistorner]

Just something that I wanted to point out. The boat deck was NOT some 70 or 73 feet from the water, as was (and is) popularly believed, it was "only" 60.5ft or so, which is about 18.44 meters (not 22).

 

[David G. Brown]

Daniel -- you are right about the true height, but even 60 feet of height is frightening for most people just to look down...let along climb in a boat and dangle on some ropes.

--David G. Brown

 

[Yuri Singleton]

On the set of Cameron's Titanic, it was said that the davits could be seen to bend noticably with the weight of the boats. Weren't the davits on his movie set the exact replicas of the davits on Titanic? If so, then it may be that the passengers and crew also saw the davits on Titanic bending under the strain. (And I believe the actual lifeboats on Titanic were larger and heavier than the replicas used on the film)

Now if I'm a passenger and I see those big steel davits warping and contorting under such increasing weight, I'd worry about the load too. It wouldn't exactly inspire confidence, let's put it that way. Even if they are designed to bend like that, it wouldn't look safe to anyone who didn't know it was supposed to work like that.

Add this bending issue to the perception of an unsinkable ship, and to the obvious danger of getting into a small boat being dangled off the side of this HUGE, brand new, state of the art liner, at night, in mid-ocean, and the result will be that passengers probably didn't really trust the lifeboats. Especially as more and more people started climbing inside.

Imagine being one of the first ones in the boat, then more passengers come aboard. The ropes start to stretch, the davit arm starts to creak and bend. You see and feel the lifeboat swell with the added weight. Then a rather large woman is helped onboard and the boat really reacts with the addition of 200 more pounds. You see the sailors holding the lines on the ship's deck and you see the expressions of physical excersion and uncertainty. Then like the walls of an old frame house, the sides of the lifeboat start to pop and crack with each additional person.

Now the boat is supposed to hold 70, but there's only about 25 or 30 so far. I might just start to have second thoughts about being in this lifeboat. Its still a long way down to the water. I'd start wondering, do these sailors really know what they're doing here? Can I be sure this is the safest place to be? I may even make a comment to someone along the lines of, 'how many more do you think we can hold there Captain?'

Not that it happened that way. But as a layperson, I can relate to the worries that might go through the minds of those passengers who had very little idea of what was really going on, or what would be the eventual outcome. Who's opinion do you trust? Is the ship really damaged that bad? Could it really sink? What happened anyway, I was sleeping. Why are we getting into the lifeboats anyway? Is there another ship nearby waiting for us? What about my things?
What about my dinner reservation I made, I stood in line for 45 minutes to make those reservations, and if they get messed up because of this confusion, I'm going to be furious!!
(Ok, that's more like today's liners.) ;-)

But my point is that the passenges were pretty much clue-less about the reality of their situation and it must have been hell trying to convince those people to get into the lifeboats and be lowered off the ship.

Yuri

 

[Inger Sheil]

David - Lowe spent most of 1911 on long voyages to Australia. There was a gap of mere days between his Tropic and Belgic voyages. There is no evidence whatsoever he saw the material to which you refer.

Scarrott's account *supports* Lowe's claim to be skeptical - Scarrott's version has Lowe eyeing the loading of the lifeboat dubiously.

So we have his inquiry testimony, supported by Scarrott...or speculation that he *might* have seen some material on the subject. I'm certainly giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

~Inger

 

[David G. Brown]

Inger -- your evidence is convincing regarding Lowe. And, I know that seamen...er seapeople per Lloyds...have traditionally been skeptical of all new developments. So, Lowe may have questioned the loading of boats. This is not proof that he did not know their rated capacity.

I seriously doubt that the officers were unaware of the testing of Olympic's equipment and the publicity surrounding the davits. The whole subject of lifeboats was coming under international scrutiny even before the Titanic disaster. It was certainly something that would have been discussed in the officer's dining rooms of passenger vessels during the period.

The physical object that was Titanic made loading lifeboats in the water impossible. There were no doorways or large windows provided at the proper height. Nor was the ship equipped with jacob's ladders for each boat. The idea of loading from one of the boarding sally ports requires waiting for the ship to sink to that level is a decidedly unattractive prospect. (Those doors would only be useable for a short time, anyway, before they went under.) Lowe may have questioned loading boats to capacity prior to launching, but he must have seen there was no other way to get people into them. This could not have escaped anyone participating in the lifeboat drills in which boats were lowered for BOT officials.

The fact is that H&W and Welin had no choice but to develop equipment suitable for launching loaded lifeboats from the new generation of super liners to which Titanic belonged. There was no other way to load lifeboats but from the boat decks of those ships. An officer would have to be dumber than a becket block not to notice this reality--an accusation that can't be leveled at Lowe in light of his accomplishments.

I will grant that all of the officers and seamen working the boats that night probably had misgivings about launching fully loaded boats. This procedure broke a tradition that stretched back as far as boats had been swung in davits. But, I must point out that questioning new equipment...as Lowe apparently did...is not the same as not knowing its stated design capabilities.

--David G. Brown

 

[Pat Cook]

I believe, also, we should consider one other factor (IMHO). In many cases, people were placed in the earlier lifeboats and got out again. I can help but think that some of the officers may have thought they better get those boats into the water BEFORE they lost any others - once in the water, they could row around to the gangway doors.

Just a thought.

Best regards, all around,
Cook

 

[Pat Cook]

Just to add a bit - again MHO here - I can't help but think there was a general mistrust of the lifeboats qualifications (loading to the limit, as such). A couple of U S Hearings testimonies -

From Herbert Pitman:

"Senator SMITH. Is there any danger in lowering a lifeboat with the davits and other equipment operating? Is there such danger in lowering a
lifeboat that you can not fill it to its capacity?

Mr. PITMAN. I would not like to fill a lifeboat with 60 people and lower it suspended at both ends."

Later:

"Senator FLETCHER. Well, I am taking conditions as they were there that night and those people.

Mr. PITMAN. I think 40 would be a very safe load. I do not think boats are ever intended to be filled from the rail."

Then, from George Moore, in charge of lifeboat 3:

"Senator NEWLANDS. How many could you safely lower to the water, 70 feet below, in one of those boats; what would you regard as a wise method of loading those boats from the boat deck?

Mr. MOORE. I should say from 30 to 40 people.

Senator NEWLANDS. And then you would expect to take on more when the boat got in the water?

Mr. MOORE. We could have taken more, sir."

Just to add two more accounts regarding the loading of the lifeboats.

Best regards,
Cook

 

[Ashley Regan]

Geepers! I wasn't expecting so many knowledgable folks to reply to my question.

Even in the Cameron film when they show the lowering the davit thingies wobble and bend (scary) and as has been mentioned above these boats probably didn't weigh as much as the real ones did.

The other thing I thought was interesting in Gracie's account he mentions that two men had been loaded into Lightoler's boat but when Gracie appeared with two ladies the men voluntarily steped out to make room. Why would they need to make room in a half filled boat? If Gracie's story is accurate it seems Mr Lightoler did allow men to enter his boats possibly when no more women presented themselves? Could it be true?

Ashley

 

[David G. Brown]

A lot has been written about loading boats from gangway doors, but this seems more wishful thinking than real possibility. In Titanic's undamaged state, the doors might as well have been on the moon with regard to boats in the water. Once the bow started tipping down, the waterline eventually reached the doors. By then, however, the passages inside the ship that led to those doors were also near the waterline. Moving large numbers of people back down toward the flooding seems improbable. Not only would they have been unwilling, but the actual foundering of the vessel would quickly have turned the doors into water intakes.

Consider that loading people from a door could not have started until the distance from sill to gun'l was under 4 feet. It would have ended once water came over the door sill, giving a useable time for loading boats equal to the time needed for 7 feet of "foundering." Titanic's boat deck disappeared at an average speed of .38 feet per minute (11:40 to 2:20 = 160 min. 60 feet/160 = .38 feet/min) So, any given doorway would have had an average useable lifespan of something like 18 minutes, or about 72 people. That assumes perfect order with everyone standing ready to move at a rate of 4 people per minute. When panic, confusion, and fear are factored in, using the doorways does not seem likely to succeed--which it did not.

It appears that some thought was given to having partially-filled boats come back to the ship for more passengers. Not one boat complied. This indicates to me that the people in the boats viewed Titanic with some trepidation. Prior to 2:00 a.m. it was probably not because of the condition of the ship. Rather, I suspect there was fear of jumpers. A full-grown man landing in a lifeboat from a height of even 20 feet could have been catastrophic.

Something to consider--once a boat was launched the person in charge had a primary responsibility to preserve the lives of those in that boat. There was no requirement to go back to the ship if the boat commander viewed that action as jeopardizing the lifeboat and/or the people in it. I find it curious how close the situation of those in the lifeboats was to that of Captain Lord of the Californian.

--David G. Brown