Officer's stripes

[Mary S. Lynn]

I've been trying to find out the exact designation of British Officer's stripes to no avail. I bring this up because I noticed that More as Lightoller is wearing an Officer's coat with one stripe with loop at the beginning of the film. On board the Carpathia, however, he is wearing an Officer's coat with three stripes with loop (Commander). I know that there are differences between thicknesses, and different colors between stripes, and that Captains' designations are four stripes with loop. Am I nuts or do I need to have my bifocals adjusted?

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Mary,

I haven't checked ANTR lately to see what they wore in that film, but the deck officers aboard Titanic wore the "executive curl" (a term taken directly from the RN uniform regulations) -- the "loop" you referred to -- with their stripes. The Captain wore 4 stripes, Chief wore 3, First Officer wore 2, and Second wore one. The junior officers did not wear the executive curl.

I once studied the principals of radar under a Royal Navy instructor, who shared quite a few ancedotes about his service. According to him, it was tradition (at least in the RN) that any poor bugger who inadvertently wore his shoulderboards backwards (i.e., the curl looping around in the wrong direction) into a pub owed the house a round.

Parks

 

[Mary S. Lynn]

Thanks, Parks! That's EXACTLY the information I was trying to find! (Sorry about the "loop" thing..that was of my own making, and no offense to the "executive curl"!). The fact that Lightoller was Second Officer and wearing one stripe with e.c. is accurate, then. (The epaulets were too fuzzy for recognition). My immediate presumption was that the coat he wore onboard the Carpathia was loaned to him, (unless he received a quickie promotion!) but it definitely has three stripes with e.c. He had shed his coat in the movie and was wearing just a turtleneck sweater (with wetsuit underneath). If you get a chance, watch the last scenes where the memorial service is taking place, and he is called to join Rostron on deck. Thanks again, Parks.

 

[Noel F. Jones]

It is necessary to distinguish between 'Board of Trade' braid and 'company livery'.

BOT braid, with standard cap badge, was legally acceptable across all companies but in many of the larger liner companies officers were 'expected' to wear company livery which would include the company cap badge and buttons.

Company livery usually meant straight cuff bands without embellishment. However, in many companies it emulated Royal Navy practice. One Liverpool company (Harrisons) had their masters wear the equivalent of commanders' braid (three bands with curl). P&O braid took the form of a chevron.

BOT braid incorporated either a diamond (on single or the middle of three bands) or a double crossover and/or diamond (on double and the middle two of quadruple bands). To confuse the issue further there was a version of second mate's braid incorporating a diamond between two bands.

Coloured cloth additions denoting function were common to RN and MN practice, except that RN paymaster = MN purser (white - for purity).

RN braid extended right round the cuff whereas MN braid usually (depending upon how much one wished to pay one's outfitter) only ran from seam to seam on the outer panel of the sleeve.

There were two grades of BOT cap badge on offer, here again depending upon how much one wished to pay one's outfitter. The better one closely emulated the RN cap badge.

There were two exceptions to the rule:

First and second radio officer - one and two wavy bands respectively, incorporating diamond.

Chief and second stewards - latterly 'catering officers - respectively wore one and two bold zigzag bands. In large passenger vessels carrying an extra-second steward the chief steward would wear three bands.

All these permutations translated to epaulettes, either for tropical wear or for wear with 'blues' blouses.

The MN was a very diverse operation over more than 100 years and all the above is by no means definitive. No doubt there's a web site somewhere which would have saved me all this trouble.

"Shoulder boards"? Epaulettes presumably. And how is it possible to wear epaulettes 'upside down'?

Noel

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Noel,

What you give here is the standard, but there were exceptions to the rule found aboard Titanic. For instance, the Marconi Co. uniform in 1912 did not have the diamond that was later worn by many R/Os. Their regulations of the time did call for simple wavy bands, though. And although these wavy sleeve stripes can be seen on the uniforms in which Phillips and Bride sat for their formal portraits, the Marconi operators' everyday ("walking out") uniform sported no sleeve striping whatsoever. If you had seen either Phillips or Bride during the normal course of their duties aboard Titanic, you would have seen them wearing a simple navy-blue, double-breasted uniform jacket ("blouse," in their vernacular), with the Marconi Co. pattern buttons as the only distinguishing feature. Why this is, I don't exactly know, but the reason could be nothing more than simple frugality...those stripes represented additional cost.

"Shoulderboards" (one word) is American vernacular for epaulettes. It's not possible to wear them upside down, but it is possible to wear each one on the wrong shoulder. The curl on a Royal Navy-pattern epaulette (which the White Star Line emulated) turns in a specific direction and if you put the right epaulette on the left shoulder, for example, the curl overlaps the uppermost stripe in an incorrect manner. Junior officers who did not rate the executive curl did not have to worry much about this. Naturally, the curl sewn onto the sleeve of uniform blouses was permanently and correctly positioned by the tailor.

Depending upon the pattern used by different companies, the diamond seen on later R/O uniforms might also have a specific direction. Others did not.

The pursers aboard Titanic did not wear zigzag stripes, as far as I have been able to determine. I came across a reference for this a few years ago and no longer have it available to me, so I cannot swear that this is correct. My understanding at the time was that the purser stripes were straight, overlaid on a wider band of white velvet. If someone has corroborative evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested to see it and stand corrected.

There is a common perception that British merchant engineers wear purple under their stripes in memory of the sacrifice made by Titanic's engineers, but that is pure myth. Purple was first officially designated for engineers in 1865, but uniforms weren't commonly worn by engineers in the merchant navy (passenger liners being a notable exception) until WW1 and after. As more engineers began to wear uniforms after the Titanic disaster, the colour purple was more commonly seen, the coincidence in timing giving rise to the myth. I have been unable to determine, after examining pictures of Titanic's engineers where they are wearing their White Star uniforms, whether or not they wore a purple band under their stripes.

I was keen on the point about the direction of the curl on the set of "Ghosts of the Abyss." In one notorious instance, the epaulettes/shoulderboards were attached backward by Wardrobe to an actor's bridge coat and I attempted to stop production just to correct them. I was subsequently indoctrinated into the reality of money/schedule versus historical detail/trivia in no uncertain terms. As seen in the film, the epaulettes are backward...I lost that particular battle, but since I benefited overall from my participation in the shoot and enjoyed the graciousness of the director, I consider that the war was largely won.

Parks

 

[Parks Stephenson]

One of Noel's points that I failed to address:

The stripes (or, in RN custom, "rings") on the White Star Line officer's uniform emulated RN practice; that is, they extended round the entire periphery of the cuff. The Marconi Co. wavy stripes, on the other hand, ran only seam to seam on the outer panel. At the very least, this is corroborated by photographs of Smith, Murdoch, Phillips and Bride.

After my post of last night, I re-examined a group picture of Olympic's engineers (many of whom who later go down in Titanic) in uniform. I cannot tell from that picture if the stripes extended around the entire cuff, or if there is a purple band underneath. Because I am looking specifically for it, there appears to be a darker line under some stripes in a couple of instances, but wishful thinking may be confusing shadow for a dark-coloured cloth band.

Pictures of Rostron's crew demonstrate a variety of stripes. There, one sees stripes worn round the cuff, in straight, diagonal and zigzag fashion. No executive curl for the Cunard Line deck officers.

Regarding the use of the term "shoulderboards," "epaulettes," or "shoulder boards"...according to the official Royal Navy website, the term, "shoulder boards" (two words) are used in modern RN uniform regulations to refer to the devices. My impression, as I read through modern RN and CN uniform regulations, is that the term "epaulette" is used to refer to a cloth strip attached to a uniform shirt/blouse, over which a sleeve with insignia can be worn, but someone can correct me if I am reading this incorrectly. In the US Navy, these are informally referred to as "soft shoulderboards." In the 1800s, the term, "epaulette," referred to the massive gold bullion-thread devices with coiled fringe and were worn only by flag officers. I have a copy of the 1897 Royal Navy uniform regulations floating around my house somewhere...I'll have to dig it out someday soon to verify the terminology of the period.

A couple of pieces of trivia for those interested...the executive curl was formally introduced in either 1856 or 1860 (sources differ) to distinguish executive from civil officers. The distinctive colours for branches of service were introduced in 1863, not 1865, as I claimed in my post above. Where did the "curl" come from? I quote from a history of RN uniforms:

<font color="#000066">"What is known as the executive curl, the ring above an officer's gold lace or braid, is said to date from the Crimean War when it was called 'Elliot's Eye' in commemoration of a Captain Elliot who carried his wounded arm in a sling under heroic circumstances. the term also refers to an eye in a hemp rope, said to be a memento of the Honorable William Elliott, a member of the Board of Admiralty 1800-1801."

Interesting, but we're straying from the main topic. Going back to Titanic, here's something worthwhile to throw out...a portrait of Wilde, reproduced in Marcus's "The Maiden Voyage," shows him to be wearing his shoulder boards backward! A picture of Smith, taken during Olympic's maiden voyage, shows him to be wearing the shoulder boards correctly; in other words, opposite from the manner in which Wilde wore his for that one portrait. Go figure.

There are still inconsistencies that I need to work out. Pictures of then-5th Off. Boxhall in WSL uniform taken in 1908 aboard Oceanic show him wearing a curl on his single stripe. This would appear to be at variance with the custom that I understand was seen aboard Titanic, but one never knows. There may be some subtle distinction here that I am overlooking.

Parks

 

[Mary S. Lynn]

Thanks, Parks and Noel. What was confusing to me on my web search is that I couldn't figure out what was Royal Navy, and what was Merchant Navy, and there was so much information that seemed to change between sets of years, that my mind just fuzzed out. I noticed in the movie that both the Bride and Phillips characters were wearing "blouses" with the loose wavy band while on duty. In the commentary version, Don Lynch comments on a Smith scene, saying something like, "And here you can see Smith with the White Star emblem emblazoned on his coat". The three-stripe Commander/Chief difference also boggled me. But then, I am easily boggled. Thanks, all.

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Mary,

I've noticed a mix of 1912 and more modern details in ANTR, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's been my experience on a movie set that historical advisors, when pressed to come up with answers, will default to their own experience and/or memory when they don't immediately know the answer. The bridge set of ANTR is full of correct detail, but not all of it is applicable to Titanic. Same with the Marconi Room. Whoever designed those sets evidently knew something about those spaces in a practical sense, but didn't know -- or couldn't remember -- exactly what those spaces looked like in Titanic.

As I think back on the ships in which I've served, I don't know if I could physically re-create the bridge of any one of them accurately. I could, however, come up with a generic bridge that would have all the major functions/features that I remember from all the ships in which I steamed. So, I can't be critical of ANTR's set designers and advisors.

I would imagine, too, that the same could be said for the uniforms put together by the Wardrobe department.

Parks

 

[Pat Winship]

I agree with Mary on this one. Lightoller had come on board the Carpathia without his coat, therefore any coat he would be seen wearing on board that ship would necessarily be borrowed from one of her officers.

Pat W.

 

[Dennis Smith]

Hi All,

I hope I can make a comment on this, I came out of the British M.N. about 14 years ago and the standard I have always sailed with, was every certified officer on a ship was allowed the "Diamond" on their wrist or their epaulete, be it hard or soft (Wrap around a pilots type shirt, or the more traditional string and tied hard type).
Deck side had -- Capt. 4 stripes, C/O 3, 2/O 2, 3/O 1. No colour between the stripes.

Engineers had -- C/E 4 stripes, 2 Eng. etc - (as Above). Purple between the gold. (Parks I have always been told that the purple was because no Engineer got off the Titanic - whoops there`s another belief gone)

Stewards -- 2 or 3 or 1 With white between the gold - seemed as if the chief steward could wear what he could get away with - and I`ve sailed with many who have got away with loads. These guys were still certificated mainly because they held a cooks certificate. But many wore wavy stripes, so maybe they weren`t certificated.

Radio Officers - 2 stripes if they were senior or the only R/O (Passenger ship R/Os are different because of the 24 hour watch keeping - they may carry 3 or 4 stripes). Junior R/Os without 6 months experience carry one stripe but no diamond (They are not sea going qualified}. Green colour between the gold. An ERO (Electronics Officer could , with Co. approval wear 3 stripes.

Electricians -- 1 or 2 stripes, depending on seniority, Junior Lecky - 1 stripe, senior lecky 2 stripes. Again green between the gold slightly lighter/ darker than the R/Os (Sorry can`t remember that one!)

Best Wishes and Rgds

Dennis

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Parks, the sets for ANTR were designed by veteran art director Alex Vetchinsky, who is said to have immersed himself in blueprints and photographs (probably mainly of Olympic) and was determined to get everything right, rather like Cameron 30 years later, but 'Vetch' of course had a much smaller budget and needed to make more compromises - like shooting the engine room scenes in Cricklewood pumping station.

There was rather less concern for strict accuracy in the nautical props, which were obtained from various sources (often breakers' yards) by ex-Merchant Marine officer Captain Leonard Townsend. The Asturias, already at the breakers but with the right type of Wellin davits still in place, provided a venue for the lifeboat scenes and the boats themselves came from the Franconia, except for collapsible B which was specially (and lovingly) built by none other than Light's own son.

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Bob,

As I alluded to above, it is quite evident that there was a lot of practical knowledge behind ANTR's sets, at least those of the crew working spaces (I claim absolutely no expertise on passenger accommodations). That does not mean, however, that they perfectly represented Titanic's interiors. This may not be through any lack of knowledge on the part of the set designer...as you mentioned, when budgets are tight, compromises have to be made. Please do not read this as criticism of the set designer's efforts or ability. I myself had to re-create Titanic's Marconi Room set for "Ghosts of the Abyss" with the available props on hand, which did not make for a complete configuration. I also managed to cobble together a "Silent Room" with only four props, so I understand the problems that a set designer faces.

The layout of ANTR's Marconi Room does not resemble either Olympic's or Titanic's, but it was full of authentic and correct components. Cameron's Marconi Room replicated Olympic's configuration fairly closely with replica components made in the UK (with Marconi Co. assistance). No one has yet to physically replicate Titanic's true Marconi layout, because of the paucity of information about it. That void is being filled, as we speak. I know for a fact that detailed knowledge about Titanic's Marconi Room layout simply was not available after Harold Bride passed away, so even though I may point out the inaccuracies of the ANTR set, I will not criticise the art director, The set he came up with resembled a generic Marconi Room of the period. But before you think I am being disrespectful of ANTR, I would like you to know that because of my respect for the film and its filmmakers, I privately placed a personal homage to ANTR in the GotA Marconi Room set -- a historically-accurate item that also links the two film together -- and it appears in the film. I don't want to say what it is here, but I hope that someday someone will notice the connection.

Parks

 

[Noel F. Jones]

I trust Mary is now suitably confused. Just to muddy the waters further:

"Stewards -- 2 or 3 or 1 With white between the gold - seemed as if the chief steward could wear what he could get away with - and I`ve sailed with many who have got away with loads. These guys were still certificated mainly because they held a cooks certificate. But many wore wavy stripes, so maybe they weren`t certificated."

Chief and Second Stewards rated as such wore respectively two and one zigzag stripes. There were no cloth additions – the zigzags were very distinctive and sufficient ID unto themselves!

Pursers and Assistant Pursers rated as such wore respectively two and one only ever straight stripes with white additions

In large passenger vessels the senior departmental officer (whether rated Purser or Steward) would wear three stripes.

There was a composite rank in many companies of Purser/Chief Steward in which case Purser's straight braid would be worn rather than Chief Steward's zigzags.

Radio officers' braid did not have any coloured additions. There was latterly an 'electronics officer' aspiring to electrician's braid with the green additions.

I only ever sailed with Marconi R/O's. Another company supplying R/O's was Siemens; I've no idea if they emulated Marconi braid or had some livery of their own. Some shipowning companies employed their R/O's direct. The criterion was whether they held a first or second class PMG certificate in wireless telegraphy.

None of this information purports to hark back to 1912.

Noel

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Dennis,

Thanks for the additional information on the varieties of stripes worn in the British Merchant Navy. I once saw a large graphic that attempted to capture all the variations worn by merchantmen sailing under the Canadian flag, and I would imagine that the British equivalent would be much, much larger.

If you like, Denis Griffiths has an excellent page that concentrates on Engineers at:

http://www.stfaiths100.freeserve.co.uk/

That's where I first learned that the Engineers' Purple was not instituted in honour of Titanic's engineers (I have since found it corroborated by multiple sources). But myth or no, I would imagine that the emotion behind it is quite real. If people believe it is a tribute to Titanic's engineers, then it is, no matter the historical fact.

Parks

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Hi, Parks.

I'm sure nobody perceived your post as disrespectful or critical of ANTR - I certainly didn't, and my own comments were intended as an extension of your own rather than a defence of 'Vetch' and the crew who, as we both agree, did a very good job with the resources available. But I'd love to see a Titanic movie with ANTR's script and Cameron's sets!

Must go now, as I need to look for something in those Marconi scenes ...

Best regards,
Bob