OK Now For the WORST Titanic Movie Votes Please

Dec 2, 2000
Easley South Carolina
>>Jim--attacking me personally sounds very, very defensive on your part.<<

I see nothing defensive about it. It looks to me like he's holding your feet to the fire and asking for something substantive in the way of responses to the questions which have been posed to you. Repeating the same Broadly Sweeping generalizations doesn't get you anywhere and doesn't make your case.

In addition to the questions posed again, to reiterate mine: "but do you even know and understand how science works as it does? Can you accurately summerize scientific methodology in your own words?"

If you have the time to read and respond with the party line, surely you have time to read and respond to the questions asked with something specific, substantive, relevant, and on point. Further, if your going to dump on science, it would help to know if you really understand how and why it works as it does.

>>Can anyone who grew up in the 60s and 70s ever forget the Sid and Marty Kroft kids series "H.R. Pufnstuff"<<

Arrrrrrgggggggggg...not H.R. Puffnstuff! I'd rather watch C-SPAN!!!!!

John Clifford

Mar 30, 1997
Sorry for the "repressed memories aggravation", Michael.

Interesting how we talked about the purported lack of female Titanic researchers, and the perceived images of female scientists, based on our perceptions from popular images from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and our memories of other images from those eras.

John- if you can stomach it- there is a film of the triumphant 1973 Krofft extravaganza at the Hollywood Bowl now available for retro viewing. Highlights, if that term may be used, include musical performances by the late Jack Wilde, Johnny Whittaker, and the Brady Bunch Kids who perform "Proud Mary" and a ton of oldies. Best part is, at the end they dim the lights for a false ending, and when they bring them up you can see what is quite clearly a stampede of parents dragging their kids out.
Fortunately, Jim, I don't remeber that. What I remembered was a "Pufnstuf Characters Day" (my term) at the local Bullocks (this was in the early 70s): we had story and autograph sessions with an actor or actress dressed up as a Pufnstuff character, followed by a lunch session, and a chance to buy about three records from the actors in that series.
My two sisters and I were with the "Witchiepoo" character and her escort (I presume the two persons changed parts the next time) and when my mom met us for lunch she said she heard excerpts from the albums and decided "NO WAY!!"; she declared they were all awful. If Jack Wilde never made it as a singer, this was an indicator of why that was.

To me, Billie Hayes, however talented an actress, "struck out" in the "Weannie the Jeannie" role, from "Lidsville".

My two sisters and I didn't remember "Hand Rolled", as regards "Pufnstuff".
The only reference that character had was when my youngest brother, Patrick had my other brother, Michael, accompany him on a jogging trek, and the comment was "Michael was 'H.R. Huff-n-Puff".

In the meantime we still have not found those wreckless cowboy-type scientists, unless they are found to be hiding in an air pocket on the Titanic, along with the babies and aliens also living in the wrecksite.
Yes, Phil, Mark B. and Jason, "I have lost it"

And for the sake of the sanity of Michael Standart, I promise this will be my last word on the topic.
Jan 28, 2003
"And maybe it should be THE last word on the topic. Period."
Oh no, Mark, do let me .... not about Sharon, I promise.

"..After all during the progressive 19th century I can’t think of any stand out examples of female contributions to the furtherance of the human race other than Marie Curie’s (and the brains behind that achievement I suspect belonged to husband Pierre). Oh — there was also Flo Nightingale who mopped a few brows. "

Haven't laughed so much in ages. To Inger's excellent list, I'd add some who didn't get the recognition due to the handmaiden status of women in their time.
Ada Lovelace (maths, computing, Babbage's Muse);

Rosalind Franklin who contributed the science base to Crick & Watson's Double Helix theory and which they never cared to acknowledge even though she was dead when they got their Nobel;

Maria Mitchell, Mary Lyell, Caroline of Ansbach, various female astronauts, pilots, scientists in WW2 .. in fact the list could be astoundingly long considering the difficulties under which such women exerted their talents.

However, I can't linger as I really must go and dig my son out of bed (it's 10.30 am) and order him to spend his free time (day off) on education, study and the furtherance of mankind, thus creating opportunities for himself. Though I do believe he plans to go clothes shopping ...

Bob Godfrey

Nov 22, 2002
I was a teacher in Further Education (ages 16 and upwards) for 30 years. Most of the classes I taught were vocational - ie preparing people for careers, not all of which offered much opportunity for the advancement of mankind. All of these classes were open to male and female applicants. In my experience, the level of ability was equal across the gender divide, but more often than not it was the female students who worked hardest and achieved the best results. I wonder where they all are now. I don't read about them in science journals, but I never see pushing supermarket trolleys either. Perhaps all my male students were late starters and are by now studying rusticles or making the world a better place. But I've seen a few of them in the supermarket, stacking shelves,

It's amusing to see Florence Nightingale dismissed as an afterthought who "mopped a few brows". Forget the sentimental myth of "The Lady with the Lamp". Miss Nightingale was hard as nails, and a brilliant administrator, educator, publicist and lobbyist who transformed first the military medical services and then the design and operation of civil hospitals in Britain. The appallingly lax and inefficient system which she swept away was created by men and, right to the end, was championed by men. Nightingale took them on and beat them with the best possible arguments - the proven success of her methods and the dismal failure of theirs. Impressed by her achievements, the US and many other countries sought her advice and adopted her principles. She trained the trainers who brought modern standards of medical education, nursing care and hospital organisation to her own and to many other nations. She wasn't a scientist, and she never did fully accept the implications of the Germ Theory. But nevertheless she transformed the concept of a hospital from a 'hostel' where the sick went to die into a professional establishment from which they could expect to emerge cured. Her achievements tower above those of Marie Curie and stand alongside any of the advancements of medicine in the nineteenth century which can be credited to men. But she did believe that the terminally sick or wounded should not be shunted into corners and ignored, so yes, she did mop a few brows too!

Jerry Nuovo

Jan 22, 2010
New Jersey,USA
Sharon, Don't worry.Maybe you'll be in the next Charmin TV commercial.And you'll be tempting Mr.Whipple with one of your rolls of hard to resist Charmin toilet paper. LOL

Jim Kalafus

Dec 3, 2000
>Miss Nightingale was hard as nails...

That was true of most of the women who "made it" back then, and, to a lesser extent, have made it today. One can be as charming as one wants in the private life, but in nearly any given field the weak and the soft get trampled.

One of the things I find most annoying about the state of Titanic "social research", is the fact that she had aboard her a cadre of women who had extended their respective fields beyond Church, Children, and Kitchen but- for whatever reason- it seems that the bulk of the attention is given to the least interesting of the lot. Madeline Astor, who could realistically serve as a template on how NOT to live one's life but who had a lot of money and was well dressed, and the rich but demented seeming Mrs Brown command more attention than do Miss Funk, Mrs. Corbett and Dr. Leader, just to pick three off the top of my head. I would like to know more about how Miss Funk reached the position that she did ~ was that a common achievement in the Mennonite world? What support did she get? What opposition? Likewise, Mrs. Corbett's journey away from her family breaks the late Victorian/Edwardian mold~ what "drive" compelled her to take that step? What was Dr. Leader's story? Where was she educated, and hwo easy or difficult was her climb?

How did other women in 1912 view these woman- would Miss Funk have been viewed as a success for the school she ran, or a failure because she was in her late 30s and unmarried? Would the other women in second class have envied Irene Corbett the freedom she, apparently, exercised or would they have considered her a "bad wife and mother" for stepping away from her family to STUDY, of all things! Has anyone else noted that Mrs. Ryerson seemed to blossom rather than wither after her husband's death? Did she long for the opportunity to go forth in the world? It would seem by the extent of her travels and social work that she did. Would this have happened had Arthur lived out his normal lifespan? Mrs. Abbott and her failed marriage~ would she have been viewed as a sympathetic character by other women, or as a wife who walked out on her husband and whose "desertion" lead to the deaths of both of her sons? What were the legal rights of a separated or divorced working class woman in 1912?

There is the raw material for several excellent women-based articles out there. But, as happens in life, the pretty, the well dressed and the wealthy seem to take precedence over the truly interesting. Think about it- the Countess of Rothes behaves with decency and has the word "heroic" attached almost immediately (for consoling a few women, manning a tiller, and not behaving as selfishly as the other women in her boat apparently did) while women like Claire Karnes (who, evidently, died rather than abandon her heavily pregnant and slow moving friend Mame Corey) who DID embody actual heroism disappeared from the storyline almost immediately. Don't get me started on Mrs. Brown~ although, I may point out that she didn't organise the women in her boat to row TOWARDS those screaming in the water. And, had not the Carpathia arrived when she did, Hichen's order to rest on the oars would have made a hell of a lot more sense than Mrs. Brown's organizing the women to row. The idea of a moderately loaded lifeboat adrift in rising seas with a complement of exhausted middle aged women aboard is rather grim, is it not? But, she was rich and "mouthy" and so "hero" was soon appended to her name, despite the twin facts that under her "command" a rescue was NOT effected and the women were doing something that could have killed them had not help appeared just when it did...

...but, I digress....

sharon rutman

Well the defense rests! Titanic Barbie stands guilty as charged.After all barbie dolls don't do much of anything except look great in clothes and are supposed to be completely ornamental. The male perspective of the Titanic!!!??? Just check out your Titanic documentaries on dvd--it's all there, the usual all male cast of suspects. You can scream at me all you want, but that doesn't change one thing.

sharon rutman

Oh remember, personal attacks are not allowed on this website. But it's always open season on certain people, right!

Jim Kalafus

Dec 3, 2000
>Titanic Barbie stands guilty as charged.

What does Dr. Johnson stand guilty of? Your initial accusations towards her were rather contradictory: can a woman be too intellectual and 'snotty' while at the same time be strictly ornamental and along for the ride to serve as set dressing?

>You can scream at me all you want, but that doesn't change one thing.

Obviously not.

>Oh remember, personal attacks are not allowed on this website. But it's always open season on certain people, right!

As tempting as it is to say "Oh, stop it" and leave it at that-

- You make a sexist remark about Dr. Johnson. A very personal attack.

- You make a sexist remark about men in general.

- You opt to revive the thread after it has been moribund for a month, with a post identical to your prior ones.

and adapt wounded tones after you get what you were obviously seeking when you, figuratively, prodded the bees' nest with your foot.

>We women just can't escape Rose's too tight corset and we become invisible in the process.

What a wonderful 1970s worldview! You manage to be insulting to all of the women who work in the non-Social aspects of Titanic and, by extension, all of the women who are out there actually DOING something for the cause.

So, here is a challenge. Take Dr. Alice Leader. One year from today, give us a well-researched career overview of the good Doctor, place the Titanic into the Big Picture of Alice Leader's life, and place both facets of the story into a context that helps us understand the experience of a woman striving to achieve success in that field pre-WW1. OR, if historical research is not your forte, one year from today I would like to see you present a BALANCED piece, in which you interview and profile 25 women who work in the Maritime-related fields you claim exclude or marginalise women. I'm SURE Inger could give you some leads as to where to begin looking for these women to interview. I am not blind to the fact that, in many cases, women DO face certain gender-based problems that men do not~ and, perhaps, when you talk with these women you will be able to prove that they feel as marginalised as you claim they are. But then, you will have presented a useful piece of social research and not a bunch of dated generalizations.

So, what say you to that? Twelve months is plenty of time. I have confidence that you can do it.

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