Okay what's the exact number who lived and who died

Apr 30, 2007
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I'm a new member currently educating myself by bashing my way through various threads and reading the US and British testimonies so still a casual observer of the board. A quick question however on survivors which is puzzeling me. Do you have an explanation as to why Mr Walter Belford's name does not appear on E.T's list of 712 survivors? The reason I ask is that there is a photo of him on the THS website attending a Titanic 50th anniversary memorial in 1962 where it is stated in the article that he was one of the survivors?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Do you have an explanation as to why Mr Walter Belford's name does not appear on E.T's list of 712 survivors?<<

My bet is that this guy was an imposter. You would be surprised at how many there have been out there trying to get their 15 minutes of fame. Luis Klien may have been something of a notorious first back in 1912, but he was far from the last. There are some ET members here who have been with THS practically from the beginning. Perhaps one of them can shed some more light on this.
 
Apr 30, 2007
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Thanks Bob. Dare I say the tread is a good example of the excellent research and professional approach taken on this site prior to stating information as fact. However it makes me wonder how and why some enthsiasts steadfastly (blindly?) stick to their beliefs despite evidence (or lack of it as in this case) to the contrary. It's fine of course to hold beliefs, opinions and theories which run against the tide but when there is no hard evidence to support those beliefs, as it appears in this case, then I believe it is naughty on the part of the THS to purport it to be "fact".
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Dave, Jason, Michael,

I herewith amend 1999 to 1998 and Titanic: A Journey Through Time to Eaton's "Foreword" in Geller's: Titanic: Women and Children First.

Therein Eaton wrote: "Aboard, as best as can be determined, were 2,228 passengers and crew. Of these 1,697 were men (12 years of age and older) and 528 were women and children. ........... It is estimated that of the 1,523 lost ...... 158 were women and children ....."
The number of W&C is the same as in Geller's chart: [Appendix One] which lists the Survival Rate by Class: Total number of W&C = 528 [1st Class 149, 2nd Class 117 & 3rd Class 262], of whom 370 survived with 158 lost.

1,697 + 528 does not add to 2,228. Also since Eaton's number of W&C agrees with Geller's he seems to have counted the stewardesses and other female employees as men. - Perhaps that is why I had completely forgotten about that set of numbers.

The author of 1,523 is still Eaton. My criticisms of his 2,228, 1,523 and 705 remains.

Lester
 
Dec 6, 2000
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>>And I have to wonder where he got those numbers from. Did he just pull it out of thin air or did he have a source he was drawing from?<<

See my post of the 16th [2:32 am] for a possible indication as to how some of Eaton's figures were arrived at.
 
Dec 6, 2000
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A further date revision:

Thanks to information supplied by Mark Chirnside during the course of some recent private correspondence [Thank you Mark], I now note that both of the earlier Eaton/Haas books contain the figures 2,228, 1,523 and 705.

On page 179 of Titanic: Triumph and Tragedy: [first published 1986] Eaton & Haas wrote: "Of Titanic's 2,228 crew and passengers there were but 705 living survivors aboard Carpathia. Lost were 1,523 - a chilling, mind-numbing figure."

On page 7 of Titanic Destination Disaster [first published 1987] Eaton & Haas wrote: "..... resulting is a loss of 1,523 lives." On page 46: "..... Titanic's 2,228 crew and passengers, there were 705 living survivors aboard Carpathia".

Lester
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Hello Jason,

I do not see 1,523 on the inside flap of the front cover of the dust jacket of Anatomy. - Not a problem as I now know that the Eaton/Haas figures [2,228, 1,523 & 705] date in published form from 1986.

Thank you for the date of the Wall Chart book.

Regards,
Lester
 

Jason D. Tiller

Moderator
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Dec 3, 2000
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Hi Lester,

Perhaps we have different editions of the book, as there was an American one and a British one. (Source: Michael Tennaro's titanicbooksite.com)

You're welcome for the info on the Wall Chart book.

Best regards,

Jason
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Nov 11, 2005
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Through research i have noticed that many people in all classes have been conunted as lost when they were saved, and saved when they were lost. I wonder why is this? Take for instance 3rd class Frankie Goldsmiith was said to have died in many book and search page, yet he is saved. Also a young couple in 2nd class was said to have been saved in a lifeboat, and yet they are listed as lost in several places. I mean, i know there were mistakes, but this is ridiculas. I have'nt got my papers with me, but i know there are alot of mess-ups

[Moderator's Note: This message, originally a separate thread, has been moved to this pre-existing thread addressing the same issue. MAB]
 

Bob Godfrey

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Nov 22, 2002
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There were two Frank Goldsmiths on the Titanic - the father (who died) and the son (who was saved). So you'd expect to find the same name in both lists.
 
Feb 23, 2007
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Bob I don'y know which book Hildur is referring to but I know in Titanic And Other Great Sea Disasters printed in 1912, they list both as deceased as well as his mother. It is interesting that on one of the pages, [ I don't have the number off hand ], they tell the story of Major Cowan of the Salvation Army going to the women's relief fund and securing money for their train to Detroit. This could be the case in other books also. Since Frank the boy was my Grandfather I try to read everything I can find that is written about him. For instance in Cris Cohls book Great Lakes Connections He writes about a women who claims to have been in their cabin. This is the first I had heard about her. My Grandfather told me that they had a private cabin across the hall from second class. This book also, I think, states she was travelling with the family. There were two men travelling with the family, one was Thomas Theobald and the other was Alfred Rush. I find many errors all the time so it is not too surprising that Hildur found this one. Lol. There is even one concerning the family Goldsmith picture on this site I have pointed out that the correct date for the photo is 1906 not 1911 as posted but to no avail. Have fun and take care I do enjoy this site. Tom
 

Bob Godfrey

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Nov 22, 2002
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I don't have the Great Lakes book, Tom, so I don't know what to make of that reference to another woman. Does it give her name? Emily made several friends on board, so cabin visits were likely. Or did she claim to be berthed there? If so, then Frank Senior must have been berthed elsewhere.
 
Feb 23, 2007
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It does give her name and she claimed to be berthed with them according to the book. I think it says she shared a cabin with them. I remember it saying that she was from Southhampton. I don't own a copy of the book so I would have to do a little digging. I know that my Great-Grandmother made a lot of friends. She kept in touch with them through the years. I'm thinking that there is a chance that she may have been misquoted or misunderstood. It is a possibility that she may have shared a cabin or space onboard the Carpathia after the sinking. Grandpa always referred to the family staying together in cabin onboard the Titanic. I know that his father spent a lot of time with his friend Thomas Theobald.
 
Dec 6, 2000
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Thomas, Bob,

The statement is on page 79: "May Howard ........... She shared a cabin with her friends, Emily Goldsmith, her husband and her son ....."
 

Bob Godfrey

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Nov 22, 2002
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Thanks, Lester. Unless there's any further clue from the context of that passage of text, I'll take it to mean they were close neighbours on E deck. Tom - May Howard boarded at Southampton but she came from the County of Norfolk in the East of England, not far from where I live.
 
Feb 23, 2007
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Lester and Bob,
This is interesting that she came from there. I know that my Grandfather and his family were living in Strood, Kent County which I think was near Rochester. I know that Grandpa always stated who was travelling with them as Thomas Theobald and Alfred Rush. This was the first time I ever heard the name of May Howard so I feel this is an incorrect statement. Had she been a friend of the family and had shared a cabin with them I am sure that my Grandpa would have told me at some time.
 

Bob Godfrey

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Nov 22, 2002
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Quite right, Tom. Emily made friends with a number of other women passengers who probably had cabins in the same section, like Amy Stanley, Rhoda Abbott and Sarah Roth. She was matron of honour at Sarah's wedding immediately after their arrival in New York, and these four kept in touch for years afterwards, but perhaps not to the same extent with May Howard. It's not likely that Emily had known any of these women before they met on the Titanic, but she was clearly the kind of woman who made friends easily, and in many cases these were lasting friendships.