Old Rose's Artifacts

[Georgia Rinker]

Hello all!

There is one thing (of many, but this one I'm most curious about) that I'm not too entirely sure on regarding this movie. (And, moderators, please feel free to move this if there's already a discussion, I tried searching for something along these lines and I was unable to find it!)

First of all, when Brock Lovett opens up the safe, nothing irks me more than the fact that they first of all had to open it up like that. Would they have done that when they gathered up artifacts? I'm not entirely sure. And second of all, when he pulls out the money and the drawing, he just throws them. It's been underwater for eighty years! Be careful and delicate with those things!

But my real question is, do you think that the items retrieved from Rose's stateroom, the things that she had been touching and looking at, would she be able to have touched them like that? Would they have been allowed to be out in the open? I know the items that the RMS Titanic Inc. have to be stabilized before they put them under the glass, but is the air under the glass pressurized to maintain the stability it had underwater for so long? Since they're so delicate and old, would she have been able to touch them?

Thanks, guys!

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Since they're so delicate and old, would she have been able to touch them?<<

In the real world, that would depend on where they were in the conservation process as well as the nature of what it was which was being conserved. I know that some of the survivors did have some artifacts "returned" to them when some could be identified but this was more ceremony then anything else. If memory serves, they even handled some of it but afterwards, it was back to the lab.

Regarding the fantasy world of the movie, some of the carelessness you saw may not have been as far removed from reality as we wished it was.

 

[Georgia Rinker]

Thanks, Michael. I think it's nice to know that some people could be in contact with their old things. It would have at least been like being in a time capsule, I'm sure!

>>Regarding the fantasy world of the movie, some of the carelessness you saw may not have been as far removed from reality as we wished it was.<<

That's quite a shame! That always angered me that things were handled like that! Very much a shame.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>That's quite a shame! That always angered me that things were handled like that! Very much a shame.<<

Unfortunately, carelessness isn't a very new problem when it comes to handling antiquities. The Dead Sea Scrolls are an example of that. The Bedouin shepherd who found them tried to sell them piecemeal on the antiquities market with little regard for their historical value, but such people have some fairly immidiate concerns...like eeking out a living...which at least make this understandable.

What surprised me was Father J.T. Milik, who surely should have known better, smoking over one of these ancient manuscripts while reading them.

A more current example was a fellow who had a piece of tile from the Olympic's swimming bath, who admitted to cleaning it with...you ready for this...Clorox bleach!

 

[Georgia Rinker]

Mummy Dust, I suppose, would be another fine example out of the treatment of certain things. I would never understand the nerve of some people who would believe that it would be alright to grind up a person's remains as a "cure-all" remedy.

>>A more current example was a fellow who had a piece of tile from the Olympic's swimming bath, who admitted to cleaning it with...you ready for this...Clorox bleach!<<

Now THAT one is also a travesty! That would be nearly the equivalent of putting Pledge on a piece of the deck! Why can't we as humans learn the value of preservation on every scale?

Although I think if I had it my way, we would never have scrapped the Olympic or any of White Star Line's surviving ships! Could have turned them into a real Queen Mary and turned a nice extra profit after they retired. 'Tis a pity that was when the Line dissolved to Cunard and it was all politics after that! (At least I think it was at least, I'm not entirely sure!)

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Why can't we as humans learn the value of preservation on every scale?<<

Some don't know, some flat out don't care, and some do care but are generally ignorant of what it takes to make proper conservation happen.

>>Although I think if I had it my way, we would never have scrapped the Olympic or any of White Star Line's surviving ships! Could have turned them into a real Queen Mary and turned a nice extra profit after they retired.<<

Mmmmmmm...you might want to take a look at the Queen Mary threads on the Other Ships And Shipwrecks section as well as some of the news stories I find dealing with preserved ships. Some have done well enough but the Queen Mary attraction has been sufficiently mismanaged so that it's rarely turned a profit.

A number of other maritime museums are either barely holding their own or are in some really serious trouble.

 

[Georgia Rinker]

>>Some don't know, some flat out don't care, and some do care but are generally ignorant of what it takes to make proper conservation happen.<<

I can imagine that it would take practice. Every single thing is different. And really, I think that some people really have done well at preserving things; when I went to the Titanic: The Exhibition in Harrisburg, everything was so beautiful and presented well, but then again they've been practicing since 1985!

>>Mmmmmmm...you might want to take a look at the Queen Mary threads on the Other Ships And Shipwrecks section as well as some of the news stories I find dealing with preserved ships<<

I actually SAW that after the moment I posted this. It seemed interesting. I think I would die happily if I were ever to walk around in a museum of such places. But I feel like I'm among a special group in saying that here!

 

[Andrea Cranford]

I believe Edith Brown's family received the pocket watch of her father back from Titanic.

However, as regards the movie,would it have even been possible to collect and restore items from the actual ship, like shown in the movie? I always thought that only RMS Titanic Inc. could collect items and only from outside the ship. I hate the thought of them busting through the actual ship, like on the movie, (turning things over, breaking doors, ripping walls, etc) looking for some passenger's piece of jewelry or something to bring up.
ARC

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I actually SAW that after the moment I posted this.<<

Kinda sobering, isn't it? The city of Long Beach didn't have to worry about conserving artifacts which have been underwater for nearly a century. All they had to do was find a reasonably competant concern to give the lease to which actually understood the problems of preservation of a ship in the water.

>>However, as regards the movie,would it have even been possible to collect and restore items from the actual ship, like shown in the movie? <<

Of course it's possible. RMS Titanic, as you noted, has been doing it.

>>I hate the thought of them busting through the actual ship, like on the movie,<<

So long as the rules laid out by the Admiralty court are abided by, that shouldn't be an issue. At least not with anybody willing to play by the rules. The concern here is that the wreck lies in international waters and that makes it difficult to keep tabs on the site. We know of at least one illegal expedition to the ship although the damage they did has not, to my knowladge, been documented and/or made public.

Somebody may know otherwise.

 

[Andrea Cranford]

"Of course it's possible. RMS Titanic, as you noted, has been doing it."
But I always thought that RMS Titanic could only gather items from the debris fields and not go ripping into the ship. In the movie they go through the ship looking for the 'heart of the ocean' aka the mcguffin into staterooms, etc,

 

[Georgia Rinker]

>>But I always thought that RMS Titanic could only gather items from the debris fields and not go ripping into the ship.<<

I could be very well be wrong about this, but I think they are authorized to go inside if possible. Sometimes they can only look inside without actually going because of the actual danger that it would cause the equipment and to the people on the expedition. In checking the online catalogue of the RMS Titanic, Inc's website (you have to be a registered member to view it) it says if it was retrieved from that section of the ship or not. IE, the chandelier from the smoking room says "This is one of dozens of gold-plated chandeliers and wall sconces from the first-class men's smoking room." whereas the wall sconce, the picture right next to it says "This wall sconce was originally located in a first-class lounge." leading me to believe that they are able to go inside if it is safe!

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I could be very well be wrong about this, but I think they are authorized to go inside if possible.<<

Uhhhhh...they're not. Salvage and recovery is limited to the debris field only.

Anybody attempting what was done in the movie would have been hauled up for a very unpleasant seassion with the judge of the Admiralty court as soon as they tied up to the dock.

 

[Georgia Rinker]

Ah, okay! My mistake then! It would make sense, though; it seems as if the interior would be very unstable. Rustacles taking over and such. I'm sure even if they were allowed to "roam around inside" like that like the film, it might have never been as nice as it was inside, although I'm not sure about its condition in 1997. Today, sadly, it surely is probably impossible to go into it even if we would be allowed to!

 

[John Clifford]

quote:

I believe Edith Brown's family received the pocket watch of her father back from Titanic.

Actually, that gift to Edith Brown (later Haismann) was a limited one: the watch was Edith's for only as long as ahe was alive. After Edith died, in 1997, the pocket watch was to be returned to RMSTI.
Edith's family, thus, made it known that it was RMSTI's responsibility for safety deposit box storage costs. That responsibility was passed on to a trustee, who returned the watch to RMSTI, now part of Premier Exhibitions.

That was the only Titanic survivor gift story, that I know.​

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

I'm sure even if they were allowed to "roam around inside" like that like the film, it might have never been as nice as it was inside, although I'm not sure about its condition in 1997.

Not all the footage of the wrecksite, was filmed at the wreck. Some of it was filmed using a water tank and a model of the wreck and IIRC, the scenes exploring the inside of the wreck were shot in the water tank.

quote:

Today, sadly, it surely is probably impossible to go into it even if we would be allowed to!

Actually, it is still possible to explore inside of the wreck, however it is limited. The most recent expeditions where the interiors of the ship were filmed, was during Ghosts of the Abyss and Last Mysteries of the Titanic.​

 

[Georgia Rinker]

>>Not all the footage of the wrecksite, was filmed at the wreck. Some of it was filmed using a water tank and a model of the wreck and IIRC, the scenes exploring the inside of the wreck were shot in the water tank.<<

This would make a lot of sense. I know at some point they had controlled environments. I know they actually went down to record footage of the wreck and the MIR devices, but I'm sure they had to use a tank to get inside to be able to do multiple shoots and angles!

>>Actually, it is still possible to explore inside of the wreck, however it is limited. The most recent expeditions where the interiors of the ship were filmed, was during Ghosts of the Abyss and Last Mysteries of the Titanic.<<

I will have to look into these movies. I've seen the Titanic Achilles Heel from the History channel and I saw the 'Titanica' movie in IMAX when the exhibition came through, but they never ventured inside in either of them!

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>but they never ventured inside in either of them!<<

I think you'll find that one of the problems here was that the ROV's available at the time were too large. Dr. Ballard's team made a limited internal survey but they didn't go very far for just that reason.

James Cameron was a real groundbreaker in this regard when he developed ROV's small enough to go deep inside the wreck for the two expeditions he led after the movie came out. He showed what can be achieved with the emerging technologies and without touching a thing.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

I've seen the Titanic Achilles Heel from the History channel and I saw the 'Titanica' movie in IMAX when the exhibition came through, but they never ventured inside in either of them!

If you were impressed after watching Titanica, you will be blown away after seeing Ghosts of the Abyss. That goes for Last Mysteries of the Titanic as well. While there have been some developments since both documentaries were made (including the making of Titanic Achilles Heel, both are worth your time.

Anyone who is fascinated with the Titanic should grab a copy of each. You will not be disappointed!​

 

[Georgia Rinker]

>>James Cameron was a real groundbreaker in this regard when he developed ROV's small enough to go deep inside the wreck for the two expeditions he led after the movie came out. He showed what can be achieved with the emerging technologies and without touching a thing.<<

That is amazing, Michael. I had no idea that Cameron developed the technology. I knew that he was involved in a lot of the work surrounding the Titanic before and even up until today and I also know that he made it so the cameras in the water could look like the audience is actually 'in' the water, too.

Jason, I will have to add those movies to my cart! They sound wonderful! I did rather enjoy the Titanic Achilles Heel, I managed to catch it partway over on the History ID channel!

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

I did rather enjoy the Titanic Achilles Heel...

So did I, Georgia. I was fortunate enough to have obtained it on DVD and when the bilge keel was discovered, I just about fell out of my chair!​