Orders from Mr. Ismay. Superior Force?

A

Aaron_2016

Former Member
Reading the Inquiry I can see that Mr. Ismay was very influential in the navigation of other ships e.g. He sent a message on the Carpathia to VP Franklin, instructing him to hold the liner Cedric in New York so that he could sail on her back to England. - "Strongly urge detain Cedric sailing her midnight if desirable." YAMSI.


Ismay also gave direct orders to Captain Rostron and instructed him to tell the Olympic to keep away because the sight of her would upset the passengers. This caused problems for the wireless operators because the Olympic was trying to relay the survivor lists to America and needed to be close enough to read the Carpathia's signals, and yet they were ordered by Ismay to stay away:

Wireless message from Rostron to Captain of Olympic:
"Mr. Ismay's orders. Olympic not to be seen by Carpathia - No transfer to take place."
Signed 'Rostron'

Yet despite these direct orders, Ismay actually shifted the blame onto Captain Rostron and told the US Inquiry it was his idea.

"The captain of the Carpathia came to the conclusion there was no use in the Olympic coming to the Carpathia, because he could render absolutely no assistance, and he thought it was very undesirable that the unfortunate passengers from the Titanic should see her sister ship so soon afterwards. That is the only conversation I had with the captain."

That was not the only conversation he had because the following message was sent from Rostron to the Cunard offices in New York.

"........Am proceeding New York unless otherwise ordered, with about 800, after having consulted with Mr. Ismay and considering the circumstances. With so much ice about, consider New York best."

This tells us that Ismay influenced Rostron about the navigation of his ship. Rostron told the Inquiry that he originally intended to steam for Halifax but then changed course for New York. I wonder what was said "after having consulted with Mr. Ismay."

Ismay told the US Inquiry - "I saw Captain Smith very frequently." Have to wonder why? Ismay also consulted with Chief Engineer Bell on the Titanic and even summoned him to his cabin to consult their speed and coal consumption. It sounds like Mr. Ismay had great influence over the men and ships he stepped aboard.

Could it be that Ismay felt he was obligated to keep a watchful eye on the navigation because as a senior member of the company he felt morally responsible for the safety and well-being of those aboard. i.e. As a representative for the passenger's interests?


.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
P

Peggy Skolnick

Member
Or, was Ismay's involvement based on business decisions, i.e., how best to promote his ships and increase the number of passengers on future sailings. If Titanic set a new record on her maiden voyage White Star would get so much extra publicity that would surely translate into a surge in bookings. So, one might ask, which would be a stronger incentive, moral responsibility, or a bigger bottom line? ....If moral responsibility is the answer, why would he cover up his communication with the other ships?
 
Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
Ismay had nothing to do with the navigation of any ship, and I'm reasonably certain any attempt on his part to give orders to the commander of a ship being operated by a competing line would have been met with derisive laughter.

He was consulted on a number of matters but the only decisions he made was from the options which were offered to him.
 
A

Aaron_2016

Former Member
Samuel Halpern said:
Nothing that you cited has to do with navigation.
Click to expand...

Wireless message from Carpathia to Captain of Olympic:
"Mr. Ismay's orders. Olympic not to be seen by Carpathia - No transfer to take place."
Signed 'Rostron'

Ismay's orders? Sounds very much like a directive from Ismay who was using his influence to keep the Olympic away. Otherwise the wireless message would simply have stated "Rostron's orders" but instead they sent "Mr. Ismay's orders" knowing his name carried greater power and influenced the captain of the Olympic to obey those orders because they came from Mr. Ismay.


Ismay told the US Inquiry - "I am not a navigator. I was simply a passenger on board the ship." Yet he summoned the chief engineer to his cabin to discuss coal and speed and pocketed an ice report given to him by the captain. He was also on the bridge twice after the collision and yet nobody told him it was off limits to passengers. He even told 3rd officer Pitman what he had to do.

"Then this man in the dressing gown said we had better get her loaded with women and children. So I said, "I await the commander's orders," to which he replied, "Very well," or something like that. It then dawned on me that it might be Mr. Ismay, judging by the description I had had given me. So I went along to the bridge and saw Captain Smith, and I told him that I thought it was Mr. Ismay that wished me to get the boat away, with women and children in it. So he said, "Go ahead; carry on."

Pitman was following Ismay's orders which were approved of by Captain Smith. Pitman said it dawned on him that it might be Mr. Ismay. I believe if he had no influence then Pitman should have ignored him. Ismay also ordered the Olympic to stay away and requested the Cedric to be held in New York for his arrival. It sounds very much like he had great influence, or at the very least he thought he had influence. The men he spoke to probably did not have to take him seriously but they knew who his connections in the business were and with one phone call could make or break careers.

.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Michael H. Standart

Michael H. Standart

Member
>>Ismay's orders? Sounds very much like a directive from Ismay who was using his influence to keep the Olympic away.<<

Which with the Olympic he could do. It was a White Star Line ship.
It's much like how Donald Trump as President of the United States can give deployment orders to U.S. Navy ships.

What do you think is going to happen if he tries to give deployment and disposition orders to a Russian naval vessel? I think President Putin just might take some issue with that.

>>"Then this man in the dressing gown said we had better get her loaded with women and children. So I said, "I await the commander's orders," to which he replied, "Very well,"<<

The key worlds being "I await the commander's orders," to which he replied, "Very well," Meaning Mr. Ismay acquiesced. There is no evidence that Ismay ordered Captain Smith to launch the boats. Captain Smith had come to that decision on his own.

Really, much of what you pointed to on the day to day is just Mr. Ismay taking care of business which as the chairman of the line, I would expect him to do. He was not giving operational orders.
 
ANDREW ROSS

ANDREW ROSS

Member
Aaron_2016 said:
Ismay told the US Inquiry - "I saw Captain Smith very frequently." Have to wonder why? Ismay also consulted with Chief Engineer Bell on the Titanic and even summoned him to his cabin to consult their speed and coal consumption. It sounds like Mr. Ismay had great influence over the men and ships he stepped aboard.




.
Click to expand...

CAN YOU CITE WHERE YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION?
I NEED DIRECT CITATIONS FOR ISMAY INFLUENCING TITANIC TO HIGHER SPEED FOR HEADLINES, AS SUGGESTED IN THE FILM.

THANKS
 
A

Aaron_2016

Former Member
ANDREW ROSS said:
CAN YOU CITE WHERE YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION?
I NEED DIRECT CITATIONS FOR ISMAY INFLUENCING TITANIC TO HIGHER SPEED FOR HEADLINES, AS SUGGESTED IN THE FILM.

THANKS
Click to expand...


Here are the pages of testimony which refer to Mr. Ismay, Mrs. Ryerson, Captain Smith, and Chief officer Bell in relation to the topic of increasing the speed of the ship.


http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq/BOTInq16Ismay02.php

http://www.titanicinquiry.org/USInq/AmInq11Ismay05.php

http://www.titanicinquiry.org/lol/depositions/ryerson1.php




.
 
Top