Paint Scrapings or steam


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Alex McLean

Guest
Hi once again folks. In 3 (as far as I've seen) paintings of the Titanic sinking by Ken Marschall, there appears to be some strange markings on the keel just forward of the rudder. The markings appear in the following pictures;

The one with the stern rearing out of the water with lifeboat 2 in the foreground, only tht tops of the funnels visible.

The one with Lifeboat 16 amoung floating ice watching boat 14 being lowered with the propellers coming out of the water.

The one with the last rocket being fired over the ship, with all the port side boats visible.

Ken hasn't replied to my message concerning this (I might have the wrong address), but if anyone on the board cold tell me what the suspect it is. It looks like either steam being vented into the cold air or scrapes on the paint. Keep in mind that it appears on the port and starboard sides, I doubt someone would have scraped the paint. Irt may be an exhaust for water, keeping in mind that it is well below the water line, and the water can't travel upwards, but the condensation could. If someone could tell me what Ken has done, it would be great.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Steam wouldn't have been vented from any point below the waterline. I think what you may be looking at are the depth markings that would be painted in white which were used to indicate the draft of the ship.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
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Alex McLean

Guest
No, these aren't depth markings, I can see that the depth markings are there next to the marks in quesion. they are in different positions in each of the paintings, but I simply cannot figure out what they are. If anyone has Ken Marschall's Art of Titanic, Illustrated History or Lost Liners, look in here. In Illus. Hist., an example can be found as first picture in the 'Death of a Titan' chapter. Lost Liners has a different example too it somewhere in there. Have a look for yourself.
 

Joshua Gulch

Member
Mar 31, 2001
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Alex,
Are you referring to what look like scuff marks where the black and red portions of the hull meet?

I've never noticed those before. No clue.

Josh.
 
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Alex McLean

Guest
That's it! No where on any site or explanation can I find any logic to them. It appears to be in Ken's later work, so obviously he must have only recently heard about them, but one does appear in his work from 1982 - 20 years ago, but all scenes after this until Lost Liners came out have no evidence of the scrapings.
Still puzzling...

Anyone who cannot find them, here are the page numbers:
Illus. History- 127
Lost Liners- 91
Art of Titanic- 94-95 98-99 102
 
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Strange, to me it looks like smoke or steam. Don't think it could be a printing anomoly since it's on two separate pix. I noticed something else puzzling about Ken's sinking pictures. Where's the flags? I noticed there were no flags on the fore or aft masts or on the stern. Hmmm? Wierd!

Michael Koch
 

Dave Gittins

Member
Apr 11, 2001
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Not sure about the flags on the masts. I think they would have been flying. The stern ensign would certainly not have been worn at night, so that's OK.
 
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Don't think it is a printing anomoly either. But it could be artists creative license to demonstrate freezing ice on the ship or someone's testimony of smudges being there. Just a thought.

I agree with Mike that it probably is not steam. But Mike Standart, could icing take place there as the water hits the wind and air as the stern rose from the water and create a sort of frost looking covering? Like if you threw water on a car windshield in freezing weather, it would ice up.

But interesting about the flags. Never noticed that.

Maureen.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Icing may be a possibility, but after looking at the pictures, another possibility occured to me that is a lot more mundane. To wit; the paint flaking off of the ship. I've seen it happen often enough where adhesion isn't all that good for whatever reason. The water is flowing against the hull, and anything already on the verge of flaking off, either due to poor surface preperation or rust, wouldn't last long.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
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Interesting Mike Standart, but would this happen on a newer ship? I guess like you said, if it was poorly prepared. What of its initial placing in the water when it was launched, there were accidents involved with that, could that cause damage to that area of the ship's paint job to cause that? Interesting. Great observation on Alex's part! Thanks for your insight Mike.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Oh yes! In fact, painting the hull is a never ending task for exactly that reason. I've seen any number of ships, some reletively new, return from a long deployment looking like something to the left of a sagging old rustbucket. Give the Deck Department some time and they'll have her looking brand new within a few days.

I remember seeing the Enterprise when she came back from her 1998-99 deployment and if you judged her strictly by all the rust on the hull and the marine growth near the waterline, you would have thought her a candidate for the scrapyard. It didn't take long for the paint crews to change that.

Of course, then you go out to sea again, the rust takes hold and a week later, you're back to square one. No damage needed. Just salt air and salt water.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Dave Gittins

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Apr 11, 2001
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Remember we are only dealing with a drawing. Ken can't possibly have known what the underside of Titanic looked like. I think the only thing is to ask him.
 
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Alex McLean

Guest
Thanks for the compliment, Maureen. I have studied Ken's pictures and have been amazed with them since I was 10, being 14 now, really not that long, but the first thing I noticed when flicking through the pages of Lost Liners in the bookshop was the marks on the Titanic section when I opened the book to a random page as so many of us do when looking at new books.
Ken hasn't replied to my E-mails, maybe I don't have the right address (does anyone here have the correct one, if so, please tell me).
It could be the icing effect, also maybe the flakeing or creative licence. Hmmmmm, Ken wouldn't have had any shots of the ships underside (at least after she had been to sea) as Dave said.
Curious...
 
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Alex McLean

Guest
BTW, I had noticed the flags before, and apparently, they were taken down at night, at least thats what my Great Grandfather said, he said he took the forward one several times on one voyage of the Olympic in 1927.
 
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Alex,

If it was anything I painted those smudge marks could be anything from dog prints to kid prints or the mailman holding it while I restrained the dog while he delivered the mail....you know...life of a mom..., but with Ken, I doubt he has those problems. (SMILE)

Hope you get your answer Alex. And thanks again for the question. Very intriguing!

Maureen.
 
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larry quinn

Guest
Alex,
Hi, I dont know if you read my post in general Titnica, but knowing if the flags were hoisted or not at night would help me. Was this a standard pratice or the captians disgresson?

Thanks
Larry
 
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Alex McLean

Guest
Can't help you there, Larry, but I'd assume that it was common practise seeing that my great grandfather remembers doing it on several occasions (one to New York, one back, though seperate voyages and under different captains).
 
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Larry and Alex and Dave Gittins,

Since the question came up here regarding the markings and the flags in the painting, I will continue the question here about the flags.

Dave Gittins posted above that the flag on the stern was taken down at night, but was unsure about the mast flag. Alex's great grandfather remembers "the flags" being taken down at night. Where would one go to find out something like this? Is there a policy and procedures manual that would state what the practice was to be in 1912? Would this documented policy manual have changed from 1912 to 1927? Perhaps due to the first world war?

Michael Standart, thanks so much for the information about the painting and maintenance of vessels. I had no idea that ships marked up and rusted quite so easily and in such a short time frame. Very interesting. Thanks.

Maureen.
 
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Scott R. Andrews

Guest
Alex,

I think that Michael hit the nail squarely on the head regarding it being paint stripped from the hull that Ken is representing in his paintings. The link below will take you to an image on the TRMA website. This is a photo of the stern of the Olympic taken at Pier 59 in NY following her maiden arrival. Other photos of her maiden arrival show many patches of missing paint all along her length at the waterline.

Best,

Scott Andrews
http://titanic-model.com/photoarchive/olympic/fullsize/image51.jpg
 

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