Jim Currie
Member
I am curious as to when the 'Parisian' arrived at Boston. has anyone any idea?
Parisian's destination
- Thread starter Jim Currie
- Start date
Mark Baber
RIP
20 April. Source: Morton Allan Directory.
Jim Currie
Member
Hi Mark!
Thanks for your info. I'm having a real problem with this vessel. So far I have found two reports of her arriving at Halifax NS - one gives the evening of the 18th April and the other the evening of the 19th. I could not find any of her arriving at Boson MA.
Since Boston is some 383 miles to the south and if she did go to Halifax first then she would most certainly have left there for Boston some time during the 19th of April. This would also fit nicely with her reported arrival time at Halifax in the evening of April 18th.1912. However, this opens a new 'can of worms'-to me that is.
My research finds that the Allan Line SS Parisian was scheduled to begin her summer run from Glasgow to Boston in April of that year. She sailed from Glasgow on the 6th. of April, 1912 ostensibly bound for Boston - not Halifax. Her average speed is given as 14 knots.
Normally, the run to Halifax would take about 10 days with an intermediate stop in Ireland or the UK. If she were going to Halifax, she should have arrived there on the 16th - not the 18th. of April as reported. Alternately; if she was going to Boston -further from Glasgow - then she would have arrived there on the 17th. April, not the 20th. Where was she during the missing hours between 2012hrs on the 14th. April and when she arrived at Halifax?
The time of 2012 hrs is derived from the charts submitted by Captain Napp of the US Hydrographic
Office during day 17 of the US Senate Enquiry.
This suggests that 'Parisian' was indeed making for the port of Boston, not Halifax. It also suggests she altered course to pass south of the ice barrier and was just east of it at 2012 hrs.
Incidentally, the position given is a few miles ahead of where we now know 'Titanic' hit the berg.
I have no problem with anything until that point then things get a bit weird.
If Parisian was where they said she was then she should have cleared the ice shortly after midnight. This would put her south west of Titanic at that time. Half an hour or so later, Titanic started firing off her rockets.
In addition; if parisian was there, the distance to Boston is around 942.5 miles. At 14 knots and allowing for clock adjustments, she should have docked around 1700 hrs on the 17th. April.
On the other hand, if she decided to go to Halifax, the distance to there would be about 622.5 miles. At 14 knots she would have arrived there about 1800hrs on the 16th. - probably about 12 hours late due to her diversion and slow-speed ice transit. So what's the real story?
Here's one for the rest of you to chew-over:
If 'Parisian' was indeed 50 miles ahead of 'Californian' and on the same course, she would have arrived at the ice field just before sunset. Captain Napp suggests they altered course to the SW, along the eastern face of the ice. By the time of 2012 hrs, it would be getting dark and they were still to the east of the ice barrier. How were they going to find their way through it in the dark? All the other ships had decided to wait until first light. They would guess that the ice was drifting southward. This might mean that by day-break, the heavy stuff they saw to the north would be down about where they were then. They did not know how far north the pack ice extended. The further south they went, the further off their original course would be. Supposing they decided to turn NNW and slowly head back the way they came - keeping to the east of the pack ice and watching-out for bergs?
Meantime, 'Californian' was maintaining her course toward the ice. She stopped at 2230 hrs. Her mystery ship- according to the 3rd. officer came up from the SSW and stopped 4 -5 miles to the southward.
Captain Lord described one of his mystery ships as 'being much like ourselves'. Indeed, 'Parisian' with her new configuration would seem very like 'Californian' in shape and size. Lots of newspaper reporters seemed to have made the same mistake.
An additional bonus from Captain Napp was the ice reports. Many herein have suggested an element of Gulf Stream effected the vessels that night. Perhaps it did for some time after 'The Corner'. But a report from the ship 'Canada' suggests that at midnight on the 9th.April, the offending pack ice was located some 94 miles to the NNE of its midnight 14th. April position. Plotting this suggests that the Labrador current was running in a direction of 203 T. at a speed of 0.7 knots.
It might be suggested that 'Parisian' went to the aid of the tanker that was short of coal. This would take care of a few hours. But that vessel was taken in tow by the 'Asian'.
It was reported that of all those on board 'Parisian' - only Captain Harris and R/O Sutherland knew about the 'Titanic' disaster before the vessel arrived at Halifax. I find that hard to believe. However if it is true - why was that deception kept up for so long after the event?
Additionally; Captain Harris is reported to have stated that he told Captain Smith he was 150 miles away during the distress - rubbish reporting or down-right lying? At 14 knots, 'Parisian' had to be almost 11 hours ahead of 'Titanic' at midnight on the 14th. - and that after negotiating an ice field? In fact, when Titanic sent her CQD, 'Parisian' could not have been further away than 56 miles - and that if she had maintained full speed for the previous 4 hours.
'Californian', after carrying out her search around the wreck site, arrived in Boston in the early hours of 19th. April. If 'Parisian' left the same area for Halifax around the same time then she would arrive there in the early hours of the 17th. of April.
The hours between 2230 on the night of April 14th until the early on the 19th can be accounted for in respect of the microscopically examined 'Californian' but the hours between 2012 on the 14th and the evening of the 18th relative to the movements of the 'Parisian' seem to be a mystery. Thre's a 24 hr minimum gap somewhere.
Perhaps all the work on this has already been done and I've made a simple, original mistake. If so, someone please enlighten me.
Jim
Thanks for your info. I'm having a real problem with this vessel. So far I have found two reports of her arriving at Halifax NS - one gives the evening of the 18th April and the other the evening of the 19th. I could not find any of her arriving at Boson MA.
Since Boston is some 383 miles to the south and if she did go to Halifax first then she would most certainly have left there for Boston some time during the 19th of April. This would also fit nicely with her reported arrival time at Halifax in the evening of April 18th.1912. However, this opens a new 'can of worms'-to me that is.
My research finds that the Allan Line SS Parisian was scheduled to begin her summer run from Glasgow to Boston in April of that year. She sailed from Glasgow on the 6th. of April, 1912 ostensibly bound for Boston - not Halifax. Her average speed is given as 14 knots.
Normally, the run to Halifax would take about 10 days with an intermediate stop in Ireland or the UK. If she were going to Halifax, she should have arrived there on the 16th - not the 18th. of April as reported. Alternately; if she was going to Boston -further from Glasgow - then she would have arrived there on the 17th. April, not the 20th. Where was she during the missing hours between 2012hrs on the 14th. April and when she arrived at Halifax?
The time of 2012 hrs is derived from the charts submitted by Captain Napp of the US Hydrographic
Office during day 17 of the US Senate Enquiry.
This suggests that 'Parisian' was indeed making for the port of Boston, not Halifax. It also suggests she altered course to pass south of the ice barrier and was just east of it at 2012 hrs.
Incidentally, the position given is a few miles ahead of where we now know 'Titanic' hit the berg.
I have no problem with anything until that point then things get a bit weird.
If Parisian was where they said she was then she should have cleared the ice shortly after midnight. This would put her south west of Titanic at that time. Half an hour or so later, Titanic started firing off her rockets.
In addition; if parisian was there, the distance to Boston is around 942.5 miles. At 14 knots and allowing for clock adjustments, she should have docked around 1700 hrs on the 17th. April.
On the other hand, if she decided to go to Halifax, the distance to there would be about 622.5 miles. At 14 knots she would have arrived there about 1800hrs on the 16th. - probably about 12 hours late due to her diversion and slow-speed ice transit. So what's the real story?
Here's one for the rest of you to chew-over:
If 'Parisian' was indeed 50 miles ahead of 'Californian' and on the same course, she would have arrived at the ice field just before sunset. Captain Napp suggests they altered course to the SW, along the eastern face of the ice. By the time of 2012 hrs, it would be getting dark and they were still to the east of the ice barrier. How were they going to find their way through it in the dark? All the other ships had decided to wait until first light. They would guess that the ice was drifting southward. This might mean that by day-break, the heavy stuff they saw to the north would be down about where they were then. They did not know how far north the pack ice extended. The further south they went, the further off their original course would be. Supposing they decided to turn NNW and slowly head back the way they came - keeping to the east of the pack ice and watching-out for bergs?
Meantime, 'Californian' was maintaining her course toward the ice. She stopped at 2230 hrs. Her mystery ship- according to the 3rd. officer came up from the SSW and stopped 4 -5 miles to the southward.
Captain Lord described one of his mystery ships as 'being much like ourselves'. Indeed, 'Parisian' with her new configuration would seem very like 'Californian' in shape and size. Lots of newspaper reporters seemed to have made the same mistake.
An additional bonus from Captain Napp was the ice reports. Many herein have suggested an element of Gulf Stream effected the vessels that night. Perhaps it did for some time after 'The Corner'. But a report from the ship 'Canada' suggests that at midnight on the 9th.April, the offending pack ice was located some 94 miles to the NNE of its midnight 14th. April position. Plotting this suggests that the Labrador current was running in a direction of 203 T. at a speed of 0.7 knots.
It might be suggested that 'Parisian' went to the aid of the tanker that was short of coal. This would take care of a few hours. But that vessel was taken in tow by the 'Asian'.
It was reported that of all those on board 'Parisian' - only Captain Harris and R/O Sutherland knew about the 'Titanic' disaster before the vessel arrived at Halifax. I find that hard to believe. However if it is true - why was that deception kept up for so long after the event?
Additionally; Captain Harris is reported to have stated that he told Captain Smith he was 150 miles away during the distress - rubbish reporting or down-right lying? At 14 knots, 'Parisian' had to be almost 11 hours ahead of 'Titanic' at midnight on the 14th. - and that after negotiating an ice field? In fact, when Titanic sent her CQD, 'Parisian' could not have been further away than 56 miles - and that if she had maintained full speed for the previous 4 hours.
'Californian', after carrying out her search around the wreck site, arrived in Boston in the early hours of 19th. April. If 'Parisian' left the same area for Halifax around the same time then she would arrive there in the early hours of the 17th. of April.
The hours between 2230 on the night of April 14th until the early on the 19th can be accounted for in respect of the microscopically examined 'Californian' but the hours between 2012 on the 14th and the evening of the 18th relative to the movements of the 'Parisian' seem to be a mystery. Thre's a 24 hr minimum gap somewhere.
Perhaps all the work on this has already been done and I've made a simple, original mistake. If so, someone please enlighten me.
Jim
Dave Gittins
Member
Jim. I have a report from a Halifax paper that says she arrived at Halifax on the night of 17 April.
"HALIFAX, N. S., April 18.--With two expeditions on the way to search for Titanic's dead, the Allan steamship Parisian crept through the fog to her dock here last night, hearing the first big authentic news known of the stupendous tragedy of the sea."
'hearing' should probably be 'bearing'
"HALIFAX, N. S., April 18.--With two expeditions on the way to search for Titanic's dead, the Allan steamship Parisian crept through the fog to her dock here last night, hearing the first big authentic news known of the stupendous tragedy of the sea."
'hearing' should probably be 'bearing'
Paul Slish
Member
Over the last several years I have spent considerable time collecting copies of newspaper articles from April 1912 concerning various ships in the vicinity of the Titanic when she struck the iceberg.
New York Times, April 18,1912, p.6.
"Halifax, N. S. April 17 - The Allen liner Parisian... reached here at 7 o'clock tonight. She was visited immediately by the Port Physician, who returned to shore shortly afterward with the information that the steamer had no additional news of the Titanic's sinking."
"The last word received from the steamer was that she had no passengers [from the Titanic] and would enter this port [Halifax] in the early evening [17th] having been delayed by a heavy fog."
So the Parisian arrived in Halifax at 7:00 p.m. on April 17, 1912. She had been delayed by a heavy fog. Interestingly the Californian had also reported heavy fog on her way to Boston.
I see nothing unusual in the Parisian's movements. An April 17, 7:00 p.m. arrival at Halifax having been delayed by fog seems quite reasonable.
New York Times, April 18,1912, p.6.
"Halifax, N. S. April 17 - The Allen liner Parisian... reached here at 7 o'clock tonight. She was visited immediately by the Port Physician, who returned to shore shortly afterward with the information that the steamer had no additional news of the Titanic's sinking."
"The last word received from the steamer was that she had no passengers [from the Titanic] and would enter this port [Halifax] in the early evening [17th] having been delayed by a heavy fog."
So the Parisian arrived in Halifax at 7:00 p.m. on April 17, 1912. She had been delayed by a heavy fog. Interestingly the Californian had also reported heavy fog on her way to Boston.
I see nothing unusual in the Parisian's movements. An April 17, 7:00 p.m. arrival at Halifax having been delayed by fog seems quite reasonable.
Paul Slish
Member
Boston Globe, April 18, 1912, p.1
By James T. Sullivan, Globe Staff Reporter.
"Halifax April 17 -- "We never received a call for assistance from the Titanic. We never knew that anything had happened to her until after 4 o'clock Monday morning..."
"These are some important statements given out by Captain W. P. Hains of the Parisian this evening [April 17] in his cabin while the vessel was moving slowly up stream. According to Captain Hains estimate, the Parisian was 45 miles from the Titanic when the wireless operator on the latter sent out his 'S. O. S.' at 10:25 Sunday night. Operator Sutherland of the Parisian had within a few minutes at the outside shut off his power and turned in."
So Captain Hains estimates he was only 45 miles away when the Titanic sent out her first distress signal.
In reading the entire article there seems to be some confusion between ship's time on the Parisian and New York time by the reporter. This is certainly understandable this early after the disaster. Sutherland went off duty about 10:30 p.m. ship's time not New York time.
"The Parisian was boarded by the writer after a display of acrobatics that delighted scores of men, women, and children, who leaned over the side watching the newspapermen clambering up the towering side of the steamer from a towboat."
So the writer, Mr. Sullivan, was actually on the Parisian as she steamed into the port of Halifax.
When Captain Hains said the two ships were 150 miles apart, he was referring to earlier in the day. He estimated the Titanic was doing 19 knots to his 13 thus picking up 6 nautical miles per hour on him. We now know Titanic was doing about 22 and thus picking up about 9 miles per hour on Parisian.
Hains, "We began to feel the approach of the ice Sunday and so we swung off somewhat about 9 o'clock that night to the southwest to take the Carpathia's course." [Parisian steaming west of course]
So Parisian steamed south of the ice field and then headed west again. Parisian radioed the Olympic the next day (Monday) stating the ice extended down as far as 41 22 N latitude. How could he estimate that if he hadn't gone there? That wireless message is listed in the PV of the Olympic as recorded by the US Inquiry.
As I have time over the next few days I will give info on the ice reports of the Parisian and also information about her arrival in Boston after she departed from Halifax. I'll be giving more newspaper quotes.
I'll show the calculations in another post, but I'll give you a little tease. Based upon Parisian's ice reports and her being 2 hours ahead of New York on her ship's clock, Parisian was only about 17 miles ahead of the Californian, not 50 miles ahead.
By James T. Sullivan, Globe Staff Reporter.
"Halifax April 17 -- "We never received a call for assistance from the Titanic. We never knew that anything had happened to her until after 4 o'clock Monday morning..."
"These are some important statements given out by Captain W. P. Hains of the Parisian this evening [April 17] in his cabin while the vessel was moving slowly up stream. According to Captain Hains estimate, the Parisian was 45 miles from the Titanic when the wireless operator on the latter sent out his 'S. O. S.' at 10:25 Sunday night. Operator Sutherland of the Parisian had within a few minutes at the outside shut off his power and turned in."
So Captain Hains estimates he was only 45 miles away when the Titanic sent out her first distress signal.
In reading the entire article there seems to be some confusion between ship's time on the Parisian and New York time by the reporter. This is certainly understandable this early after the disaster. Sutherland went off duty about 10:30 p.m. ship's time not New York time.
"The Parisian was boarded by the writer after a display of acrobatics that delighted scores of men, women, and children, who leaned over the side watching the newspapermen clambering up the towering side of the steamer from a towboat."
So the writer, Mr. Sullivan, was actually on the Parisian as she steamed into the port of Halifax.
When Captain Hains said the two ships were 150 miles apart, he was referring to earlier in the day. He estimated the Titanic was doing 19 knots to his 13 thus picking up 6 nautical miles per hour on him. We now know Titanic was doing about 22 and thus picking up about 9 miles per hour on Parisian.
Hains, "We began to feel the approach of the ice Sunday and so we swung off somewhat about 9 o'clock that night to the southwest to take the Carpathia's course." [Parisian steaming west of course]
So Parisian steamed south of the ice field and then headed west again. Parisian radioed the Olympic the next day (Monday) stating the ice extended down as far as 41 22 N latitude. How could he estimate that if he hadn't gone there? That wireless message is listed in the PV of the Olympic as recorded by the US Inquiry.
As I have time over the next few days I will give info on the ice reports of the Parisian and also information about her arrival in Boston after she departed from Halifax. I'll be giving more newspaper quotes.
I'll show the calculations in another post, but I'll give you a little tease. Based upon Parisian's ice reports and her being 2 hours ahead of New York on her ship's clock, Parisian was only about 17 miles ahead of the Californian, not 50 miles ahead.
Jim Currie
Member
Paul and Dave,
Your newspaper info is much better than mine.
However, this puts 'Parisian' 24 hours late instead of 48. Given the distance she had to steam from the ice field - at 14 knots,(her given operational speed was 14 knots) she should have arrived at Halifax - two days after coming out of the ice at about 2200 hrs on the 14h.April.
However, if she was delayed by fog hours during which time she averaged say 6 knots, her general average speed would have been 9 knots.
It would seem therefore that she was in thick fog for about 43 hours at least. If so and 'Californian' also experienced fog then the fog extended to the northward.
However, it seems (according to my information) that 'Californian' arrived at Boston in the early hours of the 19th April. Consequently it would appear she was not too much delayed by fog because we know exactly where she was at Noon on the 15th. We also know she was delayed 12 hours by ice and the search for ' Titanic' survivors.
As for the 'Parisian' being 45 miles away from 'Titanic' at 0025 hrs on the 15th. - how did they figure that one out? I have plotted this - assuming that 'Parisian' did not go charging through the ice pack but, as shown in Captain Napp's chart - went south then west before turning on to a course for Halifax.
This suggests a total distance steamed in 4 hours of about 85 miles at an average speed of 21.25 knots. By the way, through an ice-infested area! Remember! The captain of 'Parisian' was referring to Boxhalls's CQD. I think your estimate of separation is closer to the mark Dave.
The really big question though should be: why was 'Parisian', who was heading for Halifax, be on a course for Boston during the afternoon of April 14th?
The track from 'The Corner' to Boston is 273 T and to Halifax it is 285 T.
At 1642 LMT on the 14th April, according to Captain Napp, 'Parisian'was almost 26 miles south of that track heading about due west .
If she continued on that track until dusk, she would arrive at a point 6 to 8 miles south of where 'Californian' stopped at 2230 hrs the same night. Captain Napp shows her being east of the ice field in the vicinity of where 'Titanic' hit the berg at 2012 that night. It would be dark by then. How did they see to get through the ice at full speed?
Still a lot of unanswered questions here I think.
Jim.
Your newspaper info is much better than mine.
However, this puts 'Parisian' 24 hours late instead of 48. Given the distance she had to steam from the ice field - at 14 knots,(her given operational speed was 14 knots) she should have arrived at Halifax - two days after coming out of the ice at about 2200 hrs on the 14h.April.
However, if she was delayed by fog hours during which time she averaged say 6 knots, her general average speed would have been 9 knots.
It would seem therefore that she was in thick fog for about 43 hours at least. If so and 'Californian' also experienced fog then the fog extended to the northward.
However, it seems (according to my information) that 'Californian' arrived at Boston in the early hours of the 19th April. Consequently it would appear she was not too much delayed by fog because we know exactly where she was at Noon on the 15th. We also know she was delayed 12 hours by ice and the search for ' Titanic' survivors.
As for the 'Parisian' being 45 miles away from 'Titanic' at 0025 hrs on the 15th. - how did they figure that one out? I have plotted this - assuming that 'Parisian' did not go charging through the ice pack but, as shown in Captain Napp's chart - went south then west before turning on to a course for Halifax.
This suggests a total distance steamed in 4 hours of about 85 miles at an average speed of 21.25 knots. By the way, through an ice-infested area! Remember! The captain of 'Parisian' was referring to Boxhalls's CQD. I think your estimate of separation is closer to the mark Dave.
The really big question though should be: why was 'Parisian', who was heading for Halifax, be on a course for Boston during the afternoon of April 14th?
The track from 'The Corner' to Boston is 273 T and to Halifax it is 285 T.
At 1642 LMT on the 14th April, according to Captain Napp, 'Parisian'was almost 26 miles south of that track heading about due west .
If she continued on that track until dusk, she would arrive at a point 6 to 8 miles south of where 'Californian' stopped at 2230 hrs the same night. Captain Napp shows her being east of the ice field in the vicinity of where 'Titanic' hit the berg at 2012 that night. It would be dark by then. How did they see to get through the ice at full speed?
Still a lot of unanswered questions here I think.
Jim.
Paul Slish
Member
Jim,
I agree there are unanswered questions about the Parisian. I studied her quite a bit over the last few years.
First it was captain Hains who estimated he was 45 miles away when the Titanic struck. He didn't say how he came up with that estimate.
Let me continue with when the Parisian arrived in Boston.
Boston Globe, April 21, 1912, p. 2
"Arrived April 20...Ss [steamships]...Parisian (Br), Hains, Glasgow and Moville via Halifax"
This means the Parisian arrived in Boston on April 20, Captain Hains. She steamed from Glasgow and Moville to Halifax and then on to Boston.
Boston Globe, April 26, 1912 p. 15
"April 25..Sailed..Ss, Parisian (Br.) Glasgow"
So she steamed for Glasgow on April 25, 1912
I agree there are unanswered questions about the Parisian. I studied her quite a bit over the last few years.
First it was captain Hains who estimated he was 45 miles away when the Titanic struck. He didn't say how he came up with that estimate.
Let me continue with when the Parisian arrived in Boston.
Boston Globe, April 21, 1912, p. 2
"Arrived April 20...Ss [steamships]...Parisian (Br), Hains, Glasgow and Moville via Halifax"
This means the Parisian arrived in Boston on April 20, Captain Hains. She steamed from Glasgow and Moville to Halifax and then on to Boston.
Boston Globe, April 26, 1912 p. 15
"April 25..Sailed..Ss, Parisian (Br.) Glasgow"
So she steamed for Glasgow on April 25, 1912
Paul Slish
Member
Perhaps the Parisian spent several hours outside Halifax harbor before she was able to come in. "She came up last night when the weather cleared."
"PARISIAN MISSED S.O.S. CALL
OPERATOR HAD GONE TO BED
Titanic’s Appeal For Help Unheard by
Allan Liner — Cable Ship to Make
Search for Bodies
HALIFAX, N. S., April 18 - The Allan liner Parisian came up last night when the weather cleared. Capt. Hains can tell nothing of the Titanic disaster. He had no intimation of it until Monday morning about 4 o’clock, when he received the news from the Asian, that had taken in tow the disabled Deutschland, which the Parisian had been trying to pick up."
Newburyport Morning Herald, Friday April 19, p. 4
"PARISIAN MISSED S.O.S. CALL
OPERATOR HAD GONE TO BED
Titanic’s Appeal For Help Unheard by
Allan Liner — Cable Ship to Make
Search for Bodies
HALIFAX, N. S., April 18 - The Allan liner Parisian came up last night when the weather cleared. Capt. Hains can tell nothing of the Titanic disaster. He had no intimation of it until Monday morning about 4 o’clock, when he received the news from the Asian, that had taken in tow the disabled Deutschland, which the Parisian had been trying to pick up."
Newburyport Morning Herald, Friday April 19, p. 4
Paul Slish
Member
Ice Reports
Copy of File No. 63050-2995, US Hydrographic Office:
From Parisian, British Steamship. Master - William Hains.
Received in branch hydrographic office, Boston, Mass., April 24, and forwarded to Hydrographic Office, Washington. Received April 25.
"April 14, 4:30 P.M., latitude 41' 55' N., longitude 49' 02' W., passed first iceberg. 8 P.M., latitude 41' 42' N., longitude 49' 55' W., passed last iceberg. Between positions passed 14 medium and large icebergs and numerous growlers. Hains."
According to the report given to the US Hydrographic Office in Boston on April 24 the Parisian was at 41 55 N, 49 02 W at 4:30 pm. She was at 41 42 N, 49 55 W at 8:00 pm. This is very close to the Titanic's wreck site. Performing the trigonometry, the distance covered between 4:30 pm and 8:00 pm is 41.66 nm. That comes out to a speed of 11.90 knots.
Now Hains was quoted in the newspaper as saying he was doing 13 knots. But I calculated the distance on a direct line. Parisian may have gone due west some from the first position and then steered a more southerly course which would increase the distance and make 13 knots quite possible.
Also the Parisian was no 50 miles ahead of the Californian!!!
At 4.30 pm she was at 41 55 N, 49 02 W. She sent a wireless message to the Californian that she passed the three icebergs at 41 55 N, 49 14 W. That is 12 minutes longitude due west. This is just under 9 nautical miles. At 12 knots the Parisian would have passed the icebergs at 5.15 pm ship's time. She was 2 hours ahead of New York on her ship's clock.
Californian passed these three icebergs at 6.30 pm ship's time according to her wireless message to the Antillian. Californian's clock was 1 hour 50 minutes ahead of New York. This is 6.40 pm Parisian time. Thus the Parisian reached the icebergs about one hour and 25 minutes ahead of the Californian. Thus the Parisian was only 17 or 18.5 nautical miles ahead of the Californian!!! 17 if Parisian was doing 12 knots, 18.4 if doing 13 knots. Now also both ships are giving DR positions so Parisian could have been a couple more miles ahead of Californian. But I think it is pretty safe to say Parisian was no more than 20 miles ahead of the Californian.
Copy of File No. 63050-2995, US Hydrographic Office:
From Parisian, British Steamship. Master - William Hains.
Received in branch hydrographic office, Boston, Mass., April 24, and forwarded to Hydrographic Office, Washington. Received April 25.
"April 14, 4:30 P.M., latitude 41' 55' N., longitude 49' 02' W., passed first iceberg. 8 P.M., latitude 41' 42' N., longitude 49' 55' W., passed last iceberg. Between positions passed 14 medium and large icebergs and numerous growlers. Hains."
According to the report given to the US Hydrographic Office in Boston on April 24 the Parisian was at 41 55 N, 49 02 W at 4:30 pm. She was at 41 42 N, 49 55 W at 8:00 pm. This is very close to the Titanic's wreck site. Performing the trigonometry, the distance covered between 4:30 pm and 8:00 pm is 41.66 nm. That comes out to a speed of 11.90 knots.
Now Hains was quoted in the newspaper as saying he was doing 13 knots. But I calculated the distance on a direct line. Parisian may have gone due west some from the first position and then steered a more southerly course which would increase the distance and make 13 knots quite possible.
Also the Parisian was no 50 miles ahead of the Californian!!!
At 4.30 pm she was at 41 55 N, 49 02 W. She sent a wireless message to the Californian that she passed the three icebergs at 41 55 N, 49 14 W. That is 12 minutes longitude due west. This is just under 9 nautical miles. At 12 knots the Parisian would have passed the icebergs at 5.15 pm ship's time. She was 2 hours ahead of New York on her ship's clock.
Californian passed these three icebergs at 6.30 pm ship's time according to her wireless message to the Antillian. Californian's clock was 1 hour 50 minutes ahead of New York. This is 6.40 pm Parisian time. Thus the Parisian reached the icebergs about one hour and 25 minutes ahead of the Californian. Thus the Parisian was only 17 or 18.5 nautical miles ahead of the Californian!!! 17 if Parisian was doing 12 knots, 18.4 if doing 13 knots. Now also both ships are giving DR positions so Parisian could have been a couple more miles ahead of Californian. But I think it is pretty safe to say Parisian was no more than 20 miles ahead of the Californian.
Paul Slish
Member
Parisian estimated she was at 41 42 N, 49 55 W at 8:00 p.m. ship's time. I'll have to find my reference but I believe Parisian was 2 hours ahead of New York time. Captain Knapp has her 1 hour 48 minutes ahead of New York time. But either way it is not a huge difference.
Parisian's 8 p.m DR is only a few miles south of where Titanic likely struck the ice berg. She has about 3 hours 40 minutes to steam before Titanic strikes at 11:40 p.m. Titanic time. It could be 10 minutes or so more or less depending on the exact relation of the two ship's clocks. But if we take 3 hours 40 minutes as a rough estimate, Parisian at 12 knots would steam 44 nautical miles in that time. At 13 knots she would steam 47.67 nautical miles. That puts her about 45 miles form where the Titanic struck.
But of course the Titanic gave an SOS position of 41 46 N, 50 14 W. So Hains likely would have been basing his estimate of 45 miles away on the SOS position. If the Parisian continued to head in a southwest direction this estimate of 45 miles from the SOS position seems in the ball park.
But we don't know when and where Parisian turned northwest again to steam for Halifax. That is the big mystery.
There is a reference in a newspaper article to Parisian sending a position report later that evening after the 8 p.m. DR given in the ice report. But the latitude and longitude are not given. I will post what I have tomorrow. If anyone else can add to it, that would be most helpful.
Parisian's 8 p.m DR is only a few miles south of where Titanic likely struck the ice berg. She has about 3 hours 40 minutes to steam before Titanic strikes at 11:40 p.m. Titanic time. It could be 10 minutes or so more or less depending on the exact relation of the two ship's clocks. But if we take 3 hours 40 minutes as a rough estimate, Parisian at 12 knots would steam 44 nautical miles in that time. At 13 knots she would steam 47.67 nautical miles. That puts her about 45 miles form where the Titanic struck.
But of course the Titanic gave an SOS position of 41 46 N, 50 14 W. So Hains likely would have been basing his estimate of 45 miles away on the SOS position. If the Parisian continued to head in a southwest direction this estimate of 45 miles from the SOS position seems in the ball park.
But we don't know when and where Parisian turned northwest again to steam for Halifax. That is the big mystery.
There is a reference in a newspaper article to Parisian sending a position report later that evening after the 8 p.m. DR given in the ice report. But the latitude and longitude are not given. I will post what I have tomorrow. If anyone else can add to it, that would be most helpful.
Dave Gittins
Member
I'll just add that with all those ice warnings in the air, Parisian may well have been well off her course for Halifax from quite early on, as was Mount Temple. Californian was off course for Boston.
Pity about Titanic's course!
Pity about Titanic's course!
Samuel Halpern
Member
Just some more information that can add to our understanding of Parisian's possible movements. These are from the PV of Olympic on April 15.
Keeping close watch until-
9.25 a.m. Communication with S. S. Parisian. He says: "I sent traffic to the Titanic at 8.30 last night, and I heard him send traffic just before I went to bed to Cape Race. I turned in at 11.15, ship's time. The Californian was about 50 miles astern of us. I heard following this morning, 6 o'clock: "Would you like me to send service message to your commander? According to information picked up, the Carpathia has picked up about 20 boats with passengers. The Baltic is returning to give assistance. As regards Titanic I have heard nothing - don't know if she is sunk."
(This information was given to the commander immediately verbally.)
10.35 a.m. Received following message from the Parisian:
CAPTAIN Olympic:
Field ice extends to lat. 41.22; heavy to the northwest of that and bergs very numerous of all sizes; had fine clear weather.
12.25 p.m. Following service message sent to the Parisian:
CAPTAIN Parisian:
Many thanks for message. Can we steer 41.22 north, 50.14 west from westward, and then north to Titanic fairly free from ice. We are due there midnight. Should appreciate Titanic's correct position if you can give it me.
HADDOCK
12.50 p.m. Receiving following service message from Parisian:
CAPTAIN Olympic:
Safe from field ice to 41.22. 50.14; as the ice was yesterday, you would need to steer from that position about northeast and north to about lat. 41.42 and 50, then approach his position from the westward, steering about west north-west. My knowledge of the Titanic's position at midnight was derived from your own message to New York, in which you gave it as 41.47, 50.20; if such were correct, she would be in heavy field ice and numerous bergs. Hope and trust matters are not as bad as they appear.
HAINS.
Keeping close watch until-
9.25 a.m. Communication with S. S. Parisian. He says: "I sent traffic to the Titanic at 8.30 last night, and I heard him send traffic just before I went to bed to Cape Race. I turned in at 11.15, ship's time. The Californian was about 50 miles astern of us. I heard following this morning, 6 o'clock: "Would you like me to send service message to your commander? According to information picked up, the Carpathia has picked up about 20 boats with passengers. The Baltic is returning to give assistance. As regards Titanic I have heard nothing - don't know if she is sunk."
(This information was given to the commander immediately verbally.)
10.35 a.m. Received following message from the Parisian:
CAPTAIN Olympic:
Field ice extends to lat. 41.22; heavy to the northwest of that and bergs very numerous of all sizes; had fine clear weather.
12.25 p.m. Following service message sent to the Parisian:
CAPTAIN Parisian:
Many thanks for message. Can we steer 41.22 north, 50.14 west from westward, and then north to Titanic fairly free from ice. We are due there midnight. Should appreciate Titanic's correct position if you can give it me.
HADDOCK
12.50 p.m. Receiving following service message from Parisian:
CAPTAIN Olympic:
Safe from field ice to 41.22. 50.14; as the ice was yesterday, you would need to steer from that position about northeast and north to about lat. 41.42 and 50, then approach his position from the westward, steering about west north-west. My knowledge of the Titanic's position at midnight was derived from your own message to New York, in which you gave it as 41.47, 50.20; if such were correct, she would be in heavy field ice and numerous bergs. Hope and trust matters are not as bad as they appear.
HAINS.
Jim Currie
Member
'Parisian estimated she was at 41.42N, 40.55E at 8pm ship's time'. 'Parisian's' 8pm DR is only a few miles south of where 'Titanic' struck the ice berg". So we have a good idea where she was then. We also have a clear idea of where the pack ice was and how it was trending.
I would suggest that the ice 'barrier' would have been as far as the eye could see to the northward and about two points on the port bow for a vessel in that position heading on a SW'ly course.
Additionally, it would be dark by then so how did Hains see his way through the ice at any other speed than dead slow?
If indeed he had to steam further south to be sure to clear the ice he would probably do so toward the SSE. He would then turn west round the end of the ice and head NW to ward his destination. If this is so then it is conceivable that he would be about due west of 'Titanic' at midnight. Giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming he only reduced to Half speed then Slow negotiating the ice - the Log Book entries for this might be:
2012; DR 41.42N 49. 55W sea: smooth, wind: Calm. Fine and Clear. Ice barrier to westward - Alter course to South True. Engines half ahead.
2100: DR 41.35N 49. 55W.
2140: DR 41.33N 49. 55W. Av. Sp. 7 knots -Alter course to West T. Engines to Slow ahead - pushing through medium to light ice. Av. Speed 4. knots
2300: DR 41.28N 50.00W. Clear of pack ice. Set course to 295T for Halifax. Engines half ahead. Passing through Medium loose ice and small bergs
2400: DR 41.42 N 50. 09W. Clear of all ice, Engines full ahead. Resume Passage to destination. At this time, the 'Parisian' would have a total distance to run of 611 miles. At an average sped of 13 knots she should arrive there just before midnight on the 16th. April. In fact, she arrived there during the evening of 17th. April. She is reported to have been delayed by fog!
The foregoing is only guess-work. However if it is right or nearly right, 'Parisian' was about 14 miles W.S.W. of 'Titanic' and almost at Captain Smith's CDQ half an hour later. Then she would be 17 or 18 miles due west of Titanic.
If Titanic could see 'Californian' and as has been suggested that vessel was to the NW then 'Californian' might have been visible to 'Parisian' somewhere on the starboard bow then later on the starboard beam. When the rockets were fired these would have been about 26 miles away on the starboard quarter.
I would suggest that the ice 'barrier' would have been as far as the eye could see to the northward and about two points on the port bow for a vessel in that position heading on a SW'ly course.
Additionally, it would be dark by then so how did Hains see his way through the ice at any other speed than dead slow?
If indeed he had to steam further south to be sure to clear the ice he would probably do so toward the SSE. He would then turn west round the end of the ice and head NW to ward his destination. If this is so then it is conceivable that he would be about due west of 'Titanic' at midnight. Giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming he only reduced to Half speed then Slow negotiating the ice - the Log Book entries for this might be:
2012; DR 41.42N 49. 55W sea: smooth, wind: Calm. Fine and Clear. Ice barrier to westward - Alter course to South True. Engines half ahead.
2100: DR 41.35N 49. 55W.
2140: DR 41.33N 49. 55W. Av. Sp. 7 knots -Alter course to West T. Engines to Slow ahead - pushing through medium to light ice. Av. Speed 4. knots
2300: DR 41.28N 50.00W. Clear of pack ice. Set course to 295T for Halifax. Engines half ahead. Passing through Medium loose ice and small bergs
2400: DR 41.42 N 50. 09W. Clear of all ice, Engines full ahead. Resume Passage to destination. At this time, the 'Parisian' would have a total distance to run of 611 miles. At an average sped of 13 knots she should arrive there just before midnight on the 16th. April. In fact, she arrived there during the evening of 17th. April. She is reported to have been delayed by fog!
The foregoing is only guess-work. However if it is right or nearly right, 'Parisian' was about 14 miles W.S.W. of 'Titanic' and almost at Captain Smith's CDQ half an hour later. Then she would be 17 or 18 miles due west of Titanic.
If Titanic could see 'Californian' and as has been suggested that vessel was to the NW then 'Californian' might have been visible to 'Parisian' somewhere on the starboard bow then later on the starboard beam. When the rockets were fired these would have been about 26 miles away on the starboard quarter.
Paul Slish
Member
Parisian's last position before the Titanic struck.
Unfortunately the latitude and longitude were not revealed by Captain Hains.
Boston Globe, April 18, 1912, p.1
"We sent her [Titanic] a wireless message at 10:30 Sunday night, asking to have it relayed to Cape Race for us as we wished to notify the Allan agents where we were.
"That message was received, for our operator Mr. Sutherland, received the notification that it would be sent along. We don't know yet whether it was sent from the Titanic or not."...
"It was due to the fact that she [Titanic] was so far north of us that we wired her to relay a message to Cape Race, as that point was too far away for our wireless."...
"Mr. Sutherland shut off his wireless after sending the message to the Titanic at 10:30 and went to bed. He left orders to be called at 4 o'clock a.m."...
"The Parisian passed through the ice for more than a day. She first began to get into it Sunday and then began the task of swinging around it. This was accomplished by a swing to the southwest. However, the change in course did not entirely avoid ice. It was not until Monday night that it was felt that the bergs had been passed."
So the position sent to the Titanic at 10:30 p.m. Parisian ship's time to be relayed to Cape Race WAS NOT REVEALED.
Interesting.
Unfortunately the latitude and longitude were not revealed by Captain Hains.
Boston Globe, April 18, 1912, p.1
"We sent her [Titanic] a wireless message at 10:30 Sunday night, asking to have it relayed to Cape Race for us as we wished to notify the Allan agents where we were.
"That message was received, for our operator Mr. Sutherland, received the notification that it would be sent along. We don't know yet whether it was sent from the Titanic or not."...
"It was due to the fact that she [Titanic] was so far north of us that we wired her to relay a message to Cape Race, as that point was too far away for our wireless."...
"Mr. Sutherland shut off his wireless after sending the message to the Titanic at 10:30 and went to bed. He left orders to be called at 4 o'clock a.m."...
"The Parisian passed through the ice for more than a day. She first began to get into it Sunday and then began the task of swinging around it. This was accomplished by a swing to the southwest. However, the change in course did not entirely avoid ice. It was not until Monday night that it was felt that the bergs had been passed."
So the position sent to the Titanic at 10:30 p.m. Parisian ship's time to be relayed to Cape Race WAS NOT REVEALED.
Interesting.
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