Parisian's destination


Jim Currie

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The is a continuity of the conversation with Sam.

Sam, you wrote:
"The boats set adrift were left in 41° 33'N, which was about 10 miles south of the wreck site. Carpathia departed southeastward first before turning south and then southwestward to get around the pack. When she cleared the pack, which extended down to 41° 16'N, she was able to head due west maintaining 41° 15'N."
Have another think about that.
If Carpathia was at 41- 15N, 51-45'W at 7-30 pm, then in that latitude she was stemming a 1 knot current and making about 13 knots - possibly less.
The 50th meridian of longitude is 79.2 miles east of the 7-30 pm GMT position. This means that Carpathia would have crossed it at 1-20 GMT.
Carpathia left Californian at 12-04 GMT. That is a steaming time of 1 hour 16 minutes. If Carpathia managed an average of 14 knots over that steaming time, then she would have covered a distance of 17.75 miles.
If Californian left the wreckage 2.5 hours after Carpathia and at 41-33'N, and, as you claim, a 1+ knot southerly current was running, then Carpathia left the wreckage at or near to 41-36'North.
That latitude is 21 miles due north of 41-15 North. I think you need to go back to the drawing board.;) A little sketch might help.

Sams Carpathia.jpg

In fact, if Carpathia steamed at an average of 13.5 knots from when she left the scene, then she did so between then and 7-30 pm GMT which means she steamed a total distance of 100.35 miles. If she made 13 knots from Noon that day, then from when she left the scene until Noon, she steamed a total distance of 100.35 minus 54.2 = 46.2 miles which works very well with my earlier plot. It also means there was no south setting current and Carpathia found the survivors in the vicinity of the wreck. See here:
Sam update.jpg
 

Mike Spooner

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The is a continuity of the conversation with Sam.

Sam, you wrote:
"The boats set adrift were left in 41° 33'N, which was about 10 miles south of the wreck site. Carpathia departed southeastward first before turning south and then southwestward to get around the pack. When she cleared the pack, which extended down to 41° 16'N, she was able to head due west maintaining 41° 15'N."
Have another think about that.
If Carpathia was at 41- 15N, 51-45'W at 7-30 pm, then in that latitude she was stemming a 1 knot current and making about 13 knots - possibly less.
The 50th meridian of longitude is 79.2 miles east of the 7-30 pm GMT position. This means that Carpathia would have crossed it at 1-20 GMT.
Carpathia left Californian at 12-04 GMT. That is a steaming time of 1 hour 16 minutes. If Carpathia managed an average of 14 knots over that steaming time, then she would have covered a distance of 17.75 miles.
If Californian left the wreckage 2.5 hours after Carpathia and at 41-33'N, and, as you claim, a 1+ knot southerly current was running, then Carpathia left the wreckage at or near to 41-36'North.
That latitude is 21 miles due north of 41-15 North. I think you need to go back to the drawing board.;) A little sketch might help.

View attachment 77537
In fact, if Carpathia steamed at an average of 13.5 knots from when she left the scene, then she did so between then and 7-30 pm GMT which means she steamed a total distance of 100.35 miles. If she made 13 knots from Noon that day, then from when she left the scene until Noon, she steamed a total distance of 100.35 minus 54.2 = 46.2 miles which works very well with my earlier plot. It also means there was no south setting current and Carpathia found the survivors in the vicinity of the wreck. See here:
View attachment 77538
Jim as you are a bit of a dab hand in sketches its is much easy to followed for a non marine person. please kept the good work up.
 

Jim Currie

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Yes, I had her at 41° 36.5'N at 8:50am ATS when Carpathia departed.
But that position is 91.5 miles steaming by the most direct route to the 7-30pm GMT position, Sam. Divided by the steaming time of 7 hours 26 minutes gives an average speed of 12.3 knots and you claim there was a 1+ south setting current helping them and that she went south-east first.
That is a physical impossibility, Sam. She was steaming at full speed between 12-04 GMT and
1930 hrs. There is no way that she averaged less than 13 knots during that time, so at the very least, she would have covered a distance of almost 97 miles by the most direct route.
In my last post. I also showed a direct south, then due west route. That one is 100 miles long. If there had been a south-setting current, Carpathia would have turned at about 1-25GMT and averaged 13 knots thereafter. However, she would never have headed southeast as your post suggested.
In fact, if we are to believe Carpathia's 2nd Officer Bisset, the opposite was the case. I quote from "Carpathia and The Titanic Rescue".
"At 9 am in bright sunshine, we were steaming at full speed to the southwestward. away from that scene of death......we were able to set course for New York, in open water after taking sights of the sun at noon, in lat.40 deg. 45 (15?)min. N."
 
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Details including chart are in Ch 10 of my book, StrangersOnTheHorizon.
Carpathia was at 41-15N, 50-20W at 14:55 GMT heading west, about where the south point of the pack ice reached that day. Noon at 15:22 GMT 41-15N, 50-28W. At 41-15N, 51-45W at 19:30 GMT. Clearing all ice around longitude 50-40W after steaming for about 4 hours and travelling around 56 nautical miles since departing the wreckage. Prior to being near the south point of the pack, she was rounding the ice field by first heading SE-ward, then S and SW-ward, and finally turning due W in order to get around the ice.
 

Jim Currie

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Details including chart are in Ch 10 of my book, StrangersOnTheHorizon.
Carpathia was at 41-15N, 50-20W at 14:55 GMT heading west, about where the south point of the pack ice reached that day. Noon at 15:22 GMT 41-15N, 50-28W. At 41-15N, 51-45W at 19:30 GMT. Clearing all ice around longitude 50-40W after steaming for about 4 hours and travelling around 56 nautical miles since departing the wreckage. Prior to being near the south point of the pack, she was rounding the ice field by first heading SE-ward, then S and SW-ward, and finally turning due W in order to get around the ice.
Sam.
Any position, Carpathia used before Noon that day was a DR one.
He left the scene at 8-50 am Ship time which was 12-04 GMT., he would be up to full speed at 12-10 GMT. AT 14-55 GMT, he would have steamed a total distance 38.5 miles... 39 miles with the wind behind him.
Unless he was lying, when he praised Boxhall, any DR position sent by Rostron would have be relative to departure from Boxhall's CQD position. It follow that the 14-55 GMT DR would have been. based on that position.
However, if he steamed west from the 50 the Meridian then he would have been 15 miles on his westerly course. at Noon that day/ Incidentally. at Noon , he was at 41-16 North or you do not accept the evidence of Bisset. or the normal practices of navigation?
That being so, and he made a due west course despite a beam wind or a south setting current, then he was at 41-16 N. when he turned west and had come south 39-15 = 24 miles from a start latitude of 41-40 North... 4 miles south of the wreck. Something like this
Uplotting Carpathia mod.jpg

The southern western extremity of the Ice Field ( not the pack ice) is not in dispute. The evidence of the captain of the Birma shows where it was.
 

Mike Spooner

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Sam.
Any position, Carpathia used before Noon that day was a DR one.
He left the scene at 8-50 am Ship time which was 12-04 GMT., he would be up to full speed at 12-10 GMT. AT 14-55 GMT, he would have steamed a total distance 38.5 miles... 39 miles with the wind behind him.
Unless he was lying, when he praised Boxhall, any DR position sent by Rostron would have be relative to departure from Boxhall's CQD position. It follow that the 14-55 GMT DR would have been. based on that position.
However, if he steamed west from the 50 the Meridian then he would have been 15 miles on his westerly course. at Noon that day/ Incidentally. at Noon , he was at 41-16 North or you do not accept the evidence of Bisset. or the normal practices of navigation?
That being so, and he made a due west course despite a beam wind or a south setting current, then he was at 41-16 N. when he turned west and had come south 39-15 = 24 miles from a start latitude of 41-40 North... 4 miles south of the wreck. Something like this
View attachment 77542
The southern western extremity of the Ice Field ( not the pack ice) is not in dispute. The evidence of the captain of the Birma shows where it was.
Hi Jim,
In your sketch you show icefields in Black and Blue colour. What is the different between the two?
 

Jim Currie

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Hi Jim,
In your sketch you show icefields in Black and Blue colour. What is the different between the two?
Hello Mike.

On Day17 of the US Inquiry, Captain Knapp, of the USN Hydrographic Office produced the following plot.
1628763981826.png
which was drawn - not for accuracy, but to "fit" the distress position.
I superimposed it on my plot, which was was developed from the ice reports of Troutenfels, Californian, Mesaba, Parisian and Carpathia
 

Mike Spooner

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Hello Mike.

On Day17 of the US Inquiry, Captain Knapp, of the USN Hydrographic Office produced the following plot.
View attachment 77546 which was drawn - not for accuracy, but to "fit" the distress position.
I superimposed it on my plot, which was was developed from the ice reports of Troutenfels, Californian, Mesaba, Parisian and Carpathia
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the further information . Can I take it the reported Titanic CQD position shown on your sketch in the black section is not in the correct place, but should be just west of the blue colour. If so can you please place on your first sketch.
 

Jim Currie

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Hi Jim,
Thanks for the further information . Can I take it the reported Titanic CQD position shown on your sketch in the black section is not in the correct place, but should be just west of the blue colour. If so can you please place on your first sketch.
No, Mike the position shown is exact. The incorrect Boxhall CQD is 12.7 miles to the westward of the wreck site. I will show the relative positions on a close-up of Captain Knapp' chart.The positions are eccurate
close up for Mike.jpg
 
Mar 22, 2003
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There are many instances where Rostron said the field seen on the eastern side went from NW to SE, including in his report to Cunard on Apr 19th where he wrote:
"The ice field trending from NW round by W to S to SE as far as we could see either way." I guess you dismiss this because it doesn't fit in with your view.
On the western side it trended more NNW to SSE in vicinity of the wreck site, and there it was about 5 miles wide. Even in his hydrographic office report, Lord mentioned the field being about 5 miles in width. He also mention Frankfurt coming down from the NNW paralleling the ice as he was coming out of the ice around noontime that day. You like to show this field you call a barrier as this thin ribbon about 2 or 3 miles wide running due N to S and coming to an end a few miles south of the wreck. Yet, Lord managed to cross this barrier three times, the second time allegedly running at full speed.

You also refer to Birma as confirming the southern extremity of the ice field and emphasized 'not the pack ice' as if these people were talking about two different things. Rostron specifically mentioned 'south point pack ice' in his message to Olympic. Mount Temple's Capt. Moore consistently was talking about 'this pack' being 5 to 6 miles wide up near the wreck area. And by the way, the rough chart the Birma's Capt. Stulping bought into showed, more or less, a boot shaped field much wider than that thin ribbon that you keep showing. Also, Carpathia passed Birma as the later was coming round the southern end of the pack sometime around noon according to what Rostron wrote. The ice was not stationary. It was moving and changing shape by the action of current and wind.

For whatever its worth, and for those who have not seen it before, this is a cropped image from the rough chart showing Birma's path that Stulping sign off on. (I added those red lines of latitude.)
1628788181840.png
 

Jim Currie

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There are many instances where Rostron said the field seen on the eastern side went from NW to SE, including in his report to Cunard on Apr 19th where he wrote:
"The ice field trending from NW round by W to S to SE as far as we could see either way." I guess you dismiss this because it doesn't fit in with your view.
On the western side it trended more NNW to SSE in vicinity of the wreck site, and there it was about 5 miles wide. Even in his hydrographic office report, Lord mentioned the field being about 5 miles in width. He also mention Frankfurt coming down from the NNW paralleling the ice as he was coming out of the ice around noontime that day. You like to show this field you call a barrier as this thin ribbon about 2 or 3 miles wide running due N to S and coming to an end a few miles south of the wreck. Yet, Lord managed to cross this barrier three times, the second time allegedly running at full speed.

You also refer to Birma as confirming the southern extremity of the ice field and emphasized 'not the pack ice' as if these people were talking about two different things. Rostron specifically mentioned 'south point pack ice' in his message to Olympic. Mount Temple's Capt. Moore consistently was talking about 'this pack' being 5 to 6 miles wide up near the wreck area. And by the way, the rough chart the Birma's Capt. Stulping bought into showed, more or less, a boot shaped field much wider than that thin ribbon that you keep showing. Also, Carpathia passed Birma as the later was coming round the southern end of the pack sometime around noon according to what Rostron wrote. The ice was not stationary. It was moving and changing shape by the action of current and wind.

For whatever its worth, and for those who have not seen it before, this is a cropped image from the rough chart showing Birma's path that Stulping sign off on. (I added those red lines of latitude.)
View attachment 77553
Let's blow your smoke screen away, Sam.
Of course the FIELD extended NW to SE for Rostron because he met it in the form of six icebergs as he headed in a northwesterly direct to ward Boxhall. These icebergs were part of the Field. So what? I have pointed this out to you several times before.
On the western side it did not trend SSE as you declared but tapered away toward the SW. Just as Captain Stulping described it. Unlike you, he had actually circumnavigated it, How was the south end trending?
Oh! and Stulping showed the body of the barrier clear to the east of the 50th meridian... how was that possible with your south setting wind and current?

Then there is your own navy man. What did he know bout ice description? After all , he headed his plot:
sam again.jpg

Folks in glass houses should not throw stones Sam. Your Captain Lord reference carefully avoided two other things the man said under oath.
The first one being that his first crossing of the field - barrier (pack) was diagonal and it took him 20 minutes at dead slow speed to do so and the second that he told his questioner of Day 8 of the US Inquiry:
Q: how large an area would it cover the next morning?
A: all suppose about 26 miles long and from 1 to 2 miles wide."

You also ignore the fact that he crossed the second time at full speed, diagonally toward the Carpathia, and that it took him half an hour to do that. Work it out for yourself.
As for Mount Temple? His reference was the Carpathia to the SE... Again - diagonally across the ice barrier.
How I describe the constituents of an Ice Field is how I was trained to describe them as a ship's Met Officer and that was that a "Field" of sea ice is not homogeneous as far as the dimensions of individual pieces within it are. Only heavy, close, pack ice would be a barrier to progress. I'm sure you must have read that somewhere and simply forgot?
Incidentally, the "King's Dictionary" in use in 1912 describes "Field Ice - large masses of detatched ice in arctic regions". Ship captains treated Field Ice according to its make-up, the conditions, and the time of day in which they encountered it and within the capabilities of their vessel.
To reiterate : Pack Ice = areas of ice floes packed together to form a barrier.
Rostron said many things... including that his vessel was moving at an outrageous pace.
 

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