Parisian's destination

Steven Christian

Steven Christian

Member
Julian, you wrote:
"What is of interest to me is...why Captain Hains via Sutherland gave the coordinates to Olympic the next morning to get to Titanic that are questionable."
I took care of that part of your concern by showing you why you need not question them.

As for what was written in the press? That would be the same press also stated that
View attachment 77318
That's a cool newspaper. I've seen many that said Titanic being towed and all saved...ect. But look at the other articles. Gives the old adage the more things change the more they stay the same. Chicago and NY killing each other, trouble on the southern border, vaccines not delivering as promised. Wash, rinse, repeat. Cheers.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
View attachment 77523
After departure, which was close to 9am:

View attachment 77521
The boats set adrift were left in 41° 33'N, which was about 10 miles south of the wreck site. Carpathia departed southeastward first before turning south and then southwestward to get around the pack. When she cleared the pack, which extended down to 41° 16'N, she was able to head due west maintaining 41° 15'N. Her course was changed to 267°T for the Nantucket LV at 7:30pm GMT. The message to Olympic was received at 3:15pm EST which was 8:15pm GMT, or 45 minutes later. Oh by the way, Carpathia was reported at 41° 15'N, 50° 20'W at 9:55am EST when she sent a report to Cunard offices. All the details and chart are in Ch 10 of my book, StrangersOnTheHorizon.
That does not make sense, Sam.

Rostron told that the Ice Field stretched NW to SE as far as the eye could see and he saw it at dawn. In fact, Carpathia had circumnavigated at least 6 icebergs to her southeastward as she approached the survivors. Why on earth would he head southeast when there was clear water to the south?
The second quote does not make sense. It suggests that. Rostron saw the ice barrier ahead of him and tried to go back through it at the place where the Calfornian had recently done so. If you are going to quote ice evidence, quote the evidence of the man who actually went through the ice barrier three times and went 10 miles south to its southern extremity at 9 am that morning... Captain Lord.
I quote for you from Day 8 of the US Inquiry:
"I suppose about 26 miles long and from 1 to 2 miles wide."
That places the southern limit at close to 41-31'N
Captain Moore of the Mount Temple who also went to the gave it 20 miles... no more.
Then from Lord - describing what he saw on the eastern side of the barrier when he was looking for survivors:
"I was surrounded by icebergs.
The ones way to the southeast were much larger than the ones to the westward.
That is, the farthest away, the most easterly ones, the largest ones. The ones to the westward were not very high, and they were mixed up with field ice."

Why on earth would Rostron head SE?
As for Carpathia that afternoon of April 15...where does it say he set his course at 7-30 pm?
I would be totally surprised if Rostron, like all the rest that day, did not get a good Noon position and set his course at that time. Why would he wait so long.?
I have modified my plot to include your assertion that they steamed SE to clear the field.
Uplotting Carpathia
 
Julian Atkins

Julian Atkins

Member
What surprises me is what Captain Hains on the Parisian messaged Captain Haddock on Olympic on the 15th April.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
What surprises me is what Captain Hains on the Parisian messaged Captain Haddock on Olympic on the 15th April.
No big mystery, Julian.

At 10-12 am EST, Olympic inquired about Titanic. Mesaba's captain replied that he was unable to update on the situation, but offered an ice up-date.
That transmission would be overheard by vessels within range, including the Operator on Parisian who obviously reported it to his captain, because, 23 minutes later, Hains offered an ice supplement to Haddock.
10-12 am EST would have been just before Noon onboard Parisian and they would have been very busy with preparations for Noon sights, hence the delay.

Hope this helps.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
The is a continuity of the conversation with Sam.

Sam, you wrote:
"The boats set adrift were left in 41° 33'N, which was about 10 miles south of the wreck site. Carpathia departed southeastward first before turning south and then southwestward to get around the pack. When she cleared the pack, which extended down to 41° 16'N, she was able to head due west maintaining 41° 15'N."
Have another think about that.
If Carpathia was at 41- 15N, 51-45'W at 7-30 pm, then in that latitude she was stemming a 1 knot current and making about 13 knots - possibly less.
The 50th meridian of longitude is 79.2 miles east of the 7-30 pm GMT position. This means that Carpathia would have crossed it at 1-20 GMT.
Carpathia left Californian at 12-04 GMT. That is a steaming time of 1 hour 16 minutes. If Carpathia managed an average of 14 knots over that steaming time, then she would have covered a distance of 17.75 miles.
If Californian left the wreckage 2.5 hours after Carpathia and at 41-33'N, and, as you claim, a 1+ knot southerly current was running, then Carpathia left the wreckage at or near to 41-36'North.
That latitude is 21 miles due north of 41-15 North. I think you need to go back to the drawing board.;) A little sketch might help.

Sams Carpathia

In fact, if Carpathia steamed at an average of 13.5 knots from when she left the scene, then she did so between then and 7-30 pm GMT which means she steamed a total distance of 100.35 miles. If she made 13 knots from Noon that day, then from when she left the scene until Noon, she steamed a total distance of 100.35 minus 54.2 = 46.2 miles which works very well with my earlier plot. It also means there was no south setting current and Carpathia found the survivors in the vicinity of the wreck. See here:
Sam update
 
Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

Member
The is a continuity of the conversation with Sam.

Sam, you wrote:
"The boats set adrift were left in 41° 33'N, which was about 10 miles south of the wreck site. Carpathia departed southeastward first before turning south and then southwestward to get around the pack. When she cleared the pack, which extended down to 41° 16'N, she was able to head due west maintaining 41° 15'N."
Have another think about that.
If Carpathia was at 41- 15N, 51-45'W at 7-30 pm, then in that latitude she was stemming a 1 knot current and making about 13 knots - possibly less.
The 50th meridian of longitude is 79.2 miles east of the 7-30 pm GMT position. This means that Carpathia would have crossed it at 1-20 GMT.
Carpathia left Californian at 12-04 GMT. That is a steaming time of 1 hour 16 minutes. If Carpathia managed an average of 14 knots over that steaming time, then she would have covered a distance of 17.75 miles.
If Californian left the wreckage 2.5 hours after Carpathia and at 41-33'N, and, as you claim, a 1+ knot southerly current was running, then Carpathia left the wreckage at or near to 41-36'North.
That latitude is 21 miles due north of 41-15 North. I think you need to go back to the drawing board.;) A little sketch might help.

View attachment 77537
In fact, if Carpathia steamed at an average of 13.5 knots from when she left the scene, then she did so between then and 7-30 pm GMT which means she steamed a total distance of 100.35 miles. If she made 13 knots from Noon that day, then from when she left the scene until Noon, she steamed a total distance of 100.35 minus 54.2 = 46.2 miles which works very well with my earlier plot. It also means there was no south setting current and Carpathia found the survivors in the vicinity of the wreck. See here:
View attachment 77538
Jim as you are a bit of a dab hand in sketches its is much easy to followed for a non marine person. please kept the good work up.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Yes, I had her at 41° 36.5'N at 8:50am ATS when Carpathia departed.
But that position is 91.5 miles steaming by the most direct route to the 7-30pm GMT position, Sam. Divided by the steaming time of 7 hours 26 minutes gives an average speed of 12.3 knots and you claim there was a 1+ south setting current helping them and that she went south-east first.
That is a physical impossibility, Sam. She was steaming at full speed between 12-04 GMT and
1930 hrs. There is no way that she averaged less than 13 knots during that time, so at the very least, she would have covered a distance of almost 97 miles by the most direct route.
In my last post. I also showed a direct south, then due west route. That one is 100 miles long. If there had been a south-setting current, Carpathia would have turned at about 1-25GMT and averaged 13 knots thereafter. However, she would never have headed southeast as your post suggested.
In fact, if we are to believe Carpathia's 2nd Officer Bisset, the opposite was the case. I quote from "Carpathia and The Titanic Rescue".
"At 9 am in bright sunshine, we were steaming at full speed to the southwestward. away from that scene of death......we were able to set course for New York, in open water after taking sights of the sun at noon, in lat.40 deg. 45 (15?)min. N."
 
Samuel Halpern

Samuel Halpern

Member
Details including chart are in Ch 10 of my book, StrangersOnTheHorizon.
Carpathia was at 41-15N, 50-20W at 14:55 GMT heading west, about where the south point of the pack ice reached that day. Noon at 15:22 GMT 41-15N, 50-28W. At 41-15N, 51-45W at 19:30 GMT. Clearing all ice around longitude 50-40W after steaming for about 4 hours and travelling around 56 nautical miles since departing the wreckage. Prior to being near the south point of the pack, she was rounding the ice field by first heading SE-ward, then S and SW-ward, and finally turning due W in order to get around the ice.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Details including chart are in Ch 10 of my book, StrangersOnTheHorizon.
Carpathia was at 41-15N, 50-20W at 14:55 GMT heading west, about where the south point of the pack ice reached that day. Noon at 15:22 GMT 41-15N, 50-28W. At 41-15N, 51-45W at 19:30 GMT. Clearing all ice around longitude 50-40W after steaming for about 4 hours and travelling around 56 nautical miles since departing the wreckage. Prior to being near the south point of the pack, she was rounding the ice field by first heading SE-ward, then S and SW-ward, and finally turning due W in order to get around the ice.
Sam.
Any position, Carpathia used before Noon that day was a DR one.
He left the scene at 8-50 am Ship time which was 12-04 GMT., he would be up to full speed at 12-10 GMT. AT 14-55 GMT, he would have steamed a total distance 38.5 miles... 39 miles with the wind behind him.
Unless he was lying, when he praised Boxhall, any DR position sent by Rostron would have be relative to departure from Boxhall's CQD position. It follow that the 14-55 GMT DR would have been. based on that position.
However, if he steamed west from the 50 the Meridian then he would have been 15 miles on his westerly course. at Noon that day/ Incidentally. at Noon , he was at 41-16 North or you do not accept the evidence of Bisset. or the normal practices of navigation?
That being so, and he made a due west course despite a beam wind or a south setting current, then he was at 41-16 N. when he turned west and had come south 39-15 = 24 miles from a start latitude of 41-40 North... 4 miles south of the wreck. Something like this
Uplotting Carpathia mod

The southern western extremity of the Ice Field ( not the pack ice) is not in dispute. The evidence of the captain of the Birma shows where it was.
 
Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

Member
Sam.
Any position, Carpathia used before Noon that day was a DR one.
He left the scene at 8-50 am Ship time which was 12-04 GMT., he would be up to full speed at 12-10 GMT. AT 14-55 GMT, he would have steamed a total distance 38.5 miles... 39 miles with the wind behind him.
Unless he was lying, when he praised Boxhall, any DR position sent by Rostron would have be relative to departure from Boxhall's CQD position. It follow that the 14-55 GMT DR would have been. based on that position.
However, if he steamed west from the 50 the Meridian then he would have been 15 miles on his westerly course. at Noon that day/ Incidentally. at Noon , he was at 41-16 North or you do not accept the evidence of Bisset. or the normal practices of navigation?
That being so, and he made a due west course despite a beam wind or a south setting current, then he was at 41-16 N. when he turned west and had come south 39-15 = 24 miles from a start latitude of 41-40 North... 4 miles south of the wreck. Something like this
View attachment 77542
The southern western extremity of the Ice Field ( not the pack ice) is not in dispute. The evidence of the captain of the Birma shows where it was.
Hi Jim,
In your sketch you show icefields in Black and Blue colour. What is the different between the two?
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Hi Jim,
In your sketch you show icefields in Black and Blue colour. What is the different between the two?
Hello Mike.

On Day17 of the US Inquiry, Captain Knapp, of the USN Hydrographic Office produced the following plot.
1628763981826
which was drawn - not for accuracy, but to "fit" the distress position.
I superimposed it on my plot, which was was developed from the ice reports of Troutenfels, Californian, Mesaba, Parisian and Carpathia
 
Mike Spooner

Mike Spooner

Member
Hello Mike.

On Day17 of the US Inquiry, Captain Knapp, of the USN Hydrographic Office produced the following plot.
View attachment 77546 which was drawn - not for accuracy, but to "fit" the distress position.
I superimposed it on my plot, which was was developed from the ice reports of Troutenfels, Californian, Mesaba, Parisian and Carpathia
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the further information . Can I take it the reported Titanic CQD position shown on your sketch in the black section is not in the correct place, but should be just west of the blue colour. If so can you please place on your first sketch.
 
Jim Currie

Jim Currie

Senior Member
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the further information . Can I take it the reported Titanic CQD position shown on your sketch in the black section is not in the correct place, but should be just west of the blue colour. If so can you please place on your first sketch.
No, Mike the position shown is exact. The incorrect Boxhall CQD is 12.7 miles to the westward of the wreck site. I will show the relative positions on a close-up of Captain Knapp' chart.The positions are eccurate
Close up for Mike
 
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