Pellegrino as a scientist


Jul 9, 2000
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>>Consequences? I really doubt that Phillips and Bride were thinking dirty!!!<<

Quite right. More likely, they were thinking, "How do we get help soon enough to really do some good and stay alive." Knowing a ship is sinking underneath your feet and knowing that you probably don't have a ticket off doesn't help anyone's libido.
 
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Kathy A. Miles

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Thanks to all for your input on this. I've done some searches on the board the found some very good stuff. Here is a discussion about Pellegrino's assertion about the smoking room being on fire. This is one of the worst blunders as far as I'm concerned.

I've also tapped into my NASA contacts because Pellegrino claims to have connections there. Thse apparently go way back to the Challenger disaster. He mentions some things about the shuttle in the first book that are a bit questionable too. He certainly does a variety of dabbling.

I am most of the way through Daniel Butler's book, Unsinkable. It seems very good. It's also written in the style that has his sources everywhere. When Butler quotes someone, he notes where he got it from, the same goes for most other specific events and assertions. It's pretty good. The only mistake I've found so far is Butler got fireman Barretts first name wrong.

Based on my opinion, and the valued opinions of the good folks on this board, Pellegrino's book will not be on my "recommended reading" list.

Cheers,
Kathy
 
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Wade Sisson

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I enjoy reading Pellegrino's work, especially "Ghosts of the Titanic." I found some of the events he described quite fascinating, but without attribution I don't know how to verify if what he wrote was accurate. Example: He tells of how Helen Candee would sneak up on deck and stand at the point of the bow (a la DiCaprio, Winslet) in order to feel the ship's power. How does he know this? I have never read that anywhere else. And when he's describing a passenger's descent in a lifeboat he says a man says "I believe the ship is sinking." And the woman remarks "Don't you hate when that happens." I doubt she would make such a sarcastic remark, especially one that's only popular nowadays. I find his books utterly unforgettable and yet I question some of the events described within.
 
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Jeremy Lee

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Probably Pellegrino modernized the sinking of Titanic a little!
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Oct 13, 2000
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Wade, here is what I have heard about the Helen Candee story. please keep in mind that all my information is second hand, third hand or worse, so take it for what it is worth.

Pellegrino claims to have private correspondence from Candee stating that she did a Jack & Rose on Titanic's bow. he has, to my knowledge, never shown any documentation for such a letter, nor produced the letter for the public to judge its authenticity.

I was quite shocked that James Cameron chose to include this scene of Candee on the bow in his Ghosts of the Abyss movie. when the movie first came out, I made this comment to the boards here on ET, and I believe that someone suggested that other people actually saw Pellegrino's letter. I'm thinking it was Don Lynch, but I could be misremembering who it was. if it was Don Lynch, then I have to give the possibility of the story being true more weight as Lynch's credentials are durn close to unimpeachable. unlike Pellegrino. but I just can't remember for sure if it was Lynch or not.

in any event, I still take this entire story with a huge grain, make that a boulder, of salt. I can't imagine a first class passenger, especially a women with the style of clothing they wore, just waltzing across the forward deck with all the machinery, anchor chains, etc, etc, etc, to stand at the bow. we are talking about a society where proper behavior, especially in the upper crust, was very important. I find it very hard to believe that doing this would ever have even occurred to someone like Candee.

until some form of verifiable documentation can be produced to prove that she did this, I will continue to have serious doubts that it ever happened.

just one man's opinion.
all the best, Michael (TheManInBlack) T
 
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Mar 20, 2000
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All:

Michael's assessment is very good and pretty much the consensus among researchers.

This subject, as TheManInBlack mentions, has been touched on a couple of times here on ET, most fully in a thread called "Ghosts of the Abyss-by James Cameron." Anybody wanting to reference that can use the search function to locate it.

A few points to expound on:

1) The "alleged" document in question isn't a letter but a manuscript for an article. It was supposedly among material given to Walter Lord by Candee or her family. Through Pellegrino's friendship with Walter Lord, he supposedly obtained a copy. It is this copy that appears on Pellegrino's website.

2) The authorship of the piece that appears on that website is in question, as far I'm concerned, because the language, style and "voice" are just not the same as that in Candee's known published work. I am not an expert on her at this stage, but I am researching her and so far have read 18 of her articles and four of her books. The style of her writing is extremely fine with elegant flourishes of word and phrase. The story on Pellegrino's site is almost child-like by comparison, missing all the cultured nuances of expression that season Candee's writing. Unless Candee had decided to go "slumming" as a journalist and was gearing that story for the lowest market of cheap pulp fiction - say, "The Police Gazette?" - then I can't imagine that she wrote it.

3) Don Lynch, at the time of the earlier ET discussion (in May), contacted me to remind me that Cameron had offered a "disclaimer" of sorts in the script by having Pellegrino's dialogue in "Ghosts of the Abyss" reflect that the Candee-Make-Out business was not proven. If you recall, during that segment of the movie, Pellegrino is doing the voice-over narrative; in it, he says "Candee claimed," etc, etc.

4) Don did not, as I understand it from him, verify or in any way corroborate the existence or authenticity of the Candee story. Remember, Pellegrino was a colleague of Don's on that project and (in Cameron's eyes at least) on a par with him, so he wouldn't have been in a position to contradict independent research as submitted by Pellegrino. However, as it was related to me, Cameron was not unaware of the possibility that Pellegrino was mistaken about his Candee claim, which is why the decision was made in the film to introduce that scene with a clarifier.

5) From what has been related to me, Don is skeptical of the validity of the story attributed to Candee.

Hopefully, researchers will soon be able to confirm the existence, if not the reliability, of the Candee manuscript as the original is (or should be!) in the Lord-MacQuitty collection now at the Greenwich Maritime Museum.

Randy
 
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Jan 7, 2002
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I met Dr Pelligrino at George Tulloch's memorial..

He is a very nice chap, and very knowlegable on many subjects..we spent most of our conversation discussing Mars and the Saturn moon Titan-

we both agreed Mars is an exceptionally dull planet, and the moon Titan with its thick thick atmosphere, or the planet Venus, with an equally thick atmosmosphere would be much more interesting to explore than lifeless Mars.....


Tarn Stephanos
 
Jan 7, 2002
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Hi Randy
The good doctor knows his astronomy...
I concour with Dr Pelligrino- Venus is far more interesting than Mars.
regards


Tarn Stephanos
 

Tracy Smith

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I'm afraid I must disagree with Dr Pellegrino in reference to Mars vs Venus.

Venus does indeed have a very thick atmosphere, but it is essentially a runaway greenhouse effect. It is composed mostly of carbon dioxide, with several layers of clouds many kilometers thick composed of sulfuric acid. The atmospheric pressure on the Venusian surface is about 90 Earth atmospheres, comparable to the pressure 1km deep in the ocean. The surface temps on Venus are hot enough to melt lead; indeed, Venus is hotter than Mercury, despite being further from the Sun. All in all, a place extremely hostile to human life.

Mars, on the other hand, has a thin atmosphere composed mainly of carbon dioxide, plus nitrogen, argon, oxygen, and water. The average pressure on the surface is only about 1 percent of that of Earth, but varies significantly with altitude. However, the atmosphere is sufficiently thick for strong winds to occur on Mars. I remember reading somewhere that the atmosphere is sufficient enough that gliders could be used on Mars. The average temp on Mars is about -67F, with ranges from -207F to 80F. Mars also has ice caps on both poles, composed of both water ice and carbon dioxide ("dry") ice.

Though not exactly a day in the park on a summer's day, I think I'd much rather visit Mars than Venus any day...
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Jan 7, 2002
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Well, as for the question.'which planet is groovier, Venus or mars', its all a matter of personal preference.

Im a Venus man myself......

The Martain polar caps would be a nice thing to explore, but the rovers seem to stay in the equator, I assume becuse harvesting solar energey is trickier at the poles.

The astronomical body that peels my onion is the Saturn moon Titan.

For one thing, great name! Secondly, Titan is for all practical purpoases a small planet. Its atmospherioc pressure is comparable to earths, and in upcoming centuries, expect a colony or two on Titan.
Will there one day be a Titanic exhibit on Titan?
It would be oddly ironic...


Tarn Stephanos
 
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Tracy Smith

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I have to agree with youabout Titan, Tarn. It is an intriguing place. From what I've read about it, Titan is a prime candidate for terraforming, along with Mars, once the technology is made possible for this quite a few years in the future. Too bad we won't live long enough to see our solar system thoroughly explored and colonized by humans.
 
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Nancy Wardle

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I thoroughly enjoy Ghosts of the Titanic, though reading it again after rereading the Senate Hearings accounts was a shock. (I really had not noticed the inaccuracies the first time I read it; but fresh off the Senate Hearings, I knew that things he said happened could not possibly have been so.) I like the paleontological/scientific aspect of his writing, reminds me a lot of Crichton. I realize that I really need to take his writing with a big grain of salt. I've noticed that a lot of the thoughts he includes must have been products of his imagination (because the person died, for instance); but unlike Quinn in Titanic at Two, he doesn't state them as such. Either his research is slipshod, he prefers to remember Titanic in his own way, or he simply has no respect for the evidence.
 
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Mike Bull

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Probably a little of each; I'm just annoyed that people like him- and far, far worse, Gardiner- can write and print whatever they like, earn a buck off it, and never be held to account for the drivel they've written. I find that very frustrating.
 
Jun 11, 2000
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Tracy,
read something a year or two ago - can't remember reference - which said that in the longer term, Venus would be a better bet than anywhere else. Something to do with being able to 'seed' Venus with molecules which would have a very rapid effect upon its, at present, hostile climate. Still, as you say, none of us would be around to see those effects. My memory is that is would be 200 years or so, but that after that it would be better than anywhere else. Sounds hard to believe....
 

Tracy Smith

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I'd not heard about this, Monica. I'd be interested to read more. From what you've said, it sounds like a plan to reverse the greenhouse effect. The time frame to accomplish this is not all that dissimilar than the terraforming process I'd mentioned in a previous entry about Mars and Titan, though.
 
Jun 11, 2000
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I've no idea about my original reference, but this one seems to be interesting, and of reasonable provenance.
http:powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIFo3.pdf
Monica
 
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