About 53 in total. Frederick Hoyt by boat D, about 8 by boat 4, two of whom died. About 4 by boat 14, one of whom died.
About 13 survived in boat A and about 30 survived on boat B.
You could look up those boats on this web-site under: People:The Survivors etc. The link is along the top row of the opening page.
As the lists for boats A and B have been modified if you give me your private e-mail address if I can find them I will send you a scan of the old boat lists for A and B.
This list doesn't have W.F. Hoyt, the one picked up by 14. I wonder why. hmmm
By the way, Lester, considering that Zachary said "after the Titanic sank," I presume he was referring to when 14 went back. In which case, the answer would be 3, maybe 4:
1) W.F. Hoyt (1st-Class, who died in the boat)
2) Mr. Fang Lang (3rd-Class, who was found strapped to a door)
3) Steward Harold Phillimore
and (4) ? (Possibly Mr Emilio Ilario Giuseppe Portaluppi, 2nd-class, but that's not confirmed)
>>This list doesn't have W.F. Hoyt, the one picked up by 14. I wonder why. hmmm <<
Perhaps because there was no doubt that he'd been in "contact" with the water. The thrust of the article was to investigate whether or not the *claims* made by others were valid. Some may well have been. Some are probably no more then a fish story.
Yeah, I know, but when I read Zack's question, and noticed how it was phrased, the life boat 14 search immediately came to mind, because that was the only life boat to have gone back to the scene of the sinking for survivors, so I presumed he was talking about that. *shrugs* Just my impression, that's all.
I could say the same for Jack Thayer jr. and Gracie, as they hit the water, too, and made it to Collapsible B. Both of those were confirmed, on both counts (water contact and boat). That's what made me wonder about the second Hoyt. However, they lived to make claims, Hoyt did not. I get your point, although I missed it while reading through the list. I did notice the pattern, though. Thanks.
Does anybody really know how long Chief Baker Charles Jouphlin was in the water??? I think that I read in ANTR (don't have a copy) that he was still "treading water" when the Carpathia showed up. Since he stepped off the stern at 2:20 AM, that would put him in the water at least 2-1/2 hours.
That must have been some good alchohol, eh? BTW, has anybody else thought about the dreaded "suction" from being on the stern as it dipped under? According to ANTR, Joughlin didn't even get his hair wet, but James Cameron's movie had a different view.
>>Does anybody really know how long Chief Baker Charles Jouphlin was in the water??? <<
No. It couldn't have been that incredibly long, newspaper and pop history legends notwithstanding. The man was able to climb aboard Collpapsible B. If he had been "treading water" by the time the Carpathia showed up, there would have been no point in pulling him out as he would have been quite dead.
>>That must have been some good alchohol, eh?<<
I'd be careful about running away with that one. The story is more legendary then real and one that Mr. Joughin denied all the way to the end of his life.
It's a wonder, then, why Walter Lord (and, later, MacQuitty) entertained it as supposed fact in ANTR. Also, apparently Jack Thayer jr. saw the baker staggering around "as if inebriated" on deck. As the story goes, Jack turned to his friend, Milton Long, and said, "If I every get out of this alive, that's one person I'll never see again." He confirmed later on that the chief baker was the first one he encountered upon reaching the Carpathia.
This is only testimony or anecdotally reflective, of course, but Jack's impressions were that the chief baker was *hiccup* a bit on the bottle.
>>but Jack's impressions were that the chief baker was *hiccup* a bit on the bottle. <<
Just goes to show there are at least two sides to the story. Somewhere nestled between the two, there's probably a grain of truth. I don't pretend to know what it is but anecdotal evidence isn't always reliable. By the same token, if the baker was in fact "gassed up" to the gills, one would hardly expect him to be all that candid about it.
On the other hand, Michael, why should he lie about it? After all, he was on a sinking ship with no way of getting off, and most likely believed that he wasn't going to make it through the night (especially considering the ship broke up and he was very close to the break up point). He was crew, but at that point, he really didn't have any responsibility (it's not like he was captain or a major officer). Anyone would understandably drink him- or herself into a stupor under the circumstances - you would, I would... That's not to say I would do it early on when the women and children need attention getting off safely, but at the end, when things started getting hairy, it's perfectly natural to take a few swigs to settle the nerves.
>>On the other hand, Michael, why should he lie about it?<<
For some people, there's no reason to lie other then the fact that they can. For the baker, it may have been a matter of public perception (READ: What the neighbours think) or it may well be that he believed what he said at the time. Just because we can't figure out a reason for something from our point of view doesn't mean that Joughin would have the same handicap.
>>...but at the end, when things started getting hairy, it's perfectly natural to take a few swigs to settle the nerves.<<
I'm not disagreeing with that either. Hell, I might be tempted to try some of the goodies on The Wine List myself in situation like that. Don't know if I would, but I'd be tempted.
Mark, what account are you using that suggests Thayer identified the man with the bottle of Gordan's gin as Joughin? His book suggests that it was a passenger rather than a crewman: ''Someone told me afterwards that he was a State Senator or Congressman from Virginia or West Virginia.' Robert Daniel is a likely nominee.
I suspect accounts of Joughin's intoxication are largely exagerated, most probably due to his depiction in the filmed version of ANTR. By his admission, he had two drinks with a bit of a gap between them, including a half-full tumbler. In the book version, Lord indicates Joughin is feeling the grog, but not that he's reeling around with a dozy grin on his face (as per the movie).
More than one person would have sought fortifying spirits that night, if they had access to them. And hypothermia can reproduce some of its symptoms - slurring of speech, confusion etc (a possible explanation for at least one 'drunk' picked up by Boat 4 from the water.)
Interesting Sterling to US conversion rates for the wine, etc. 1 to 4.
The Ticket rate was 1 to 5, with a minor difference for when the Purser exchanged money. -
[$4.80 to the £1 when giving American money for English; or £1 for $4.95 when giving English money for American]
The source for the Joughin connection might be very close to home. I seem to recall that either Thayer's or Joughin's bio here at ET tells it that way, but I can't check right now as there's a problem with the database links. I'd say that the writer of that bio put two and two together and came up with five, unless there's a primary source to confirm that version. A little alcohol might well have helped Joughin to survive by relaxing him and reducing the immediate effects of shock, but a lot would have caused rapid loss of body heat and no chance at all of survival in the water.
A quick review of the problem: We are all equipped with an automatic temperature control mechanism; in hot conditions the blood vessels just beneath the skin enlarge, so that body heat is carried closer to the surface and the heat loss from the skin accelerates to cool us down. Alcohol causes that same mechanism to operate whatever the outside temperature, and on a cold night that can be a serious problem. But having your skin suffused with blood makes you feel warm, and that's the origin of the myth that had not been dispelled back in 1912. Even now, it's rare that a winter goes by without a few cases of fit young people walking home from parties without their coats, feeling very warm but dying from exposure before they reach home, for exactly the same reason that a drunken Joughin would have died much faster than a sober Joughin.
Hallo, Lester. If you're looking at that link Mike provided, the prices are completely screwed. In many cases they've used pounds where the units should be shillings, thus getting the Sterling prices 20x too high. A bottle of Cliquot 1900, for instance, was 14 shillings, not 14 pounds. Even J J Astor would have choked on those prices! Check the real printed wine list and you'll find that the 1 to 5 conversion rate was the norm.