Pictures 1st class titanic suites


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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi dear people,

I've doing some research on a Dutch firm who also was involved in the building of Titanic. I'm talking about the "Koninklijke Nederlandsche Meubelfabriek H.P. Mutters & Zoon". This firm made a part of the furniture for Olympic and Titanic. For example the white rotan chairs for the Café Parisien and the complete furniture for some first class suiterooms. About the last ones I found a very interesting site. It contains some real great first class pictures. I think they are from Olympic. I don't know if these pictures were allready known by some of the ET members. I think they give a good indication of the suiterooms on Titanics C deck.

Please look at the site and give some responses!

http://www.dkb.nl/Photogallery.htm

Much greetings Rollie
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Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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Rollie: Those were good pictures. I've not seen them before, and what I find interesting is that they haven't been cropped, so that you can see that they are from a brochure or a book. I've seen those suites before, but never from those angles. The more common pictures are shot in a way that makes the rooms look VAST: these somewhat more accurately reflect the true dimensions. Thanks for the link. JIM
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
I have seen these pictures before, in recent books.

Yes they are good pictures. I'm not sure which ones, but some are from B deck and some from C deck and all those pictures are from the Olympic, however Titanic's cabins would have looked identical.

Daniel.
 
Apr 29, 2000
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Excellent photos!! Thanks for the link, Rolf. I've seen some of the photos before, but not all.

Do you have any idea what publication they are from? Was it perhaps a business document prepared by the furniture company you mentioned to show off their work for White Star to potential customers? if so, I'd like a look at the whole book.
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi there,

Gilbert: the firm who owned these pictures, was taken over by anoter firm in the early 70's. The new firm "De Klerk Binnenbouw" is now the owner of the whole archive collection of "Koninklijke Nederlandsche Meubelfabriek H.P. Mutters & Zoon".

These pictures belong to that archive collection. I guess they were taken as a kind of business document or some memory to their White Star order.
I don't know if there are other Olympic/Titanic pictures in that archive collection, but I guess they aren't. There is an exhibition of these pictures and the Olympic/Titanic order by the firm.

I must dissapoint you Gilbert, when you're looking for other White Star Line ship interiorpictures by this firm. The Titanic and Olympic were the only two White Star Liners with an order to fully fitting of some cabins. I've a list with other orders for Titanic from the same firm. I shall search it and send it to this topic.

Almost all the firms orders are from Dutch Lines. Though the firm worked together with H&W, cause they also fitted the Statendam II and III together with H&W.

I'm very confused about the fact if the pictures are from Olympic or Titanic. I'm sure that some of them are from Olympic, though the site of the firm says they are all taken on Titanic. Is there anyone who could give some more possibilities about this??

I also like to know wich cabins on Titanic were exactly or particulary the same as shown in the pictures. I have allready some suspicion that the rooms in "Old and New Dutch" were fitted by this firm. These include the first two Ryerson cabins on B deck.

Hope someone could give me more information!

Much greetings Rollie
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Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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Rollie: If you don't already have it, Titanic: Triumph and Tragedy (John P. Eaton and Charles A. Haas/ W.W. Norton NY/London/ ISBN 0-393-03697-9) has a nice selection of photos of the first class cabins and suites, with numbers, many of which closely correspond to those shown in your pictures. As for determining whether or not they were taken aboard the Titanic or the Olympic, I suspect that the best way of doing it would be to determine when those pictures were first used. If you can find them in a Koninklijke Nederlandsche Meubelfabriek H.P. Mutters& Zoon advertisement from, say, May 1911, then you'll have the answer. The closer to 1912 you get , the more room there is for ambiguity. Good luck.
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi James,

Thanks for the information about Triumph and Tragedy. I don't have that book so I may gonna look for it.

About the suite question (are these pictures from Olympic or Titanic?) I asked the "De Klerk Binnenbouw" today. I don't have an answer allready, but I shall give you more information as soon as possible. I also asked if the firm had some more interiorpictures of Olympic or Titanic. I hope they will send me some good stuff!

BTW, I promised to send some information about the orders for Titanic. I hope it is correct translated:


1912 No 401 SS TITANIC for first class staterooms:

Febr.&March; Alterations of 12 doors viz. fitted a louvre in the bottom panel, revised treatment of the outside of the doors.

March 10; 12 down quilts of best silk (in two different sizes)

March 24; 12 paper baskets, 12 pin cushions, 12 antimacassars for sofa's, 8 covers for tops of dressing tables, 24 square pillow for sofa's, 18 additional shelves or racks over the washbasins for toilet requisites.

April 5; 2 spare washbasins.


These information was mentioned in a bill wich was send on april 23 1912 (a fully week after the disaster). The total rate was 177.12 pounds. I didn't mentioned the prices per product. When you look at the last date (april 5), you can see that still a week before the Titanic left southampton there were fittings for the interior aboard.

Could anyone give some information about Titanic suites who were fitted in the same style as shown on the pictures??

Greetings Rollie
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Mar 20, 2000
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The photos are great. I've never seen those images. They seem to be shot in soft focus - like the portrait photos of de Meyer or Genthe. Very sort of ghostly-looking.
 

Jim Kalafus

Member
Dec 3, 2000
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MR. BIGHAM: I liked your Arnold Genthe reference! Very appropriate!
ROLLIE: By all means buy the Eaton and Haas book. It has more pictures of every aspect of the Titanic than you'd expect to find in one place. And try to get the second edition, it offers MORE.
Now, about your cabin pictures. I can't match them EXACTLY to anything from the Titanic, and suspect that they are from the Olympic, but here are some which bear close resemblance:
(Reading from the upper left)
LUXE CABIN DUTCH RENAISSANCE: Looks like B-59 aboard the Titanic. Only, in the Titanic suite, the second bed was evidently moved or removed.

LUXE CABIN MODERN (picture #1, looking towards the windows) from the ceiling design, and that of the panelling, this could be either B57 or B63

LUXE CABIN LXVI Appears to be B-58, the cabin occupied by Mrs Baxter and Mrs Suzette Douglas on The Titanic.

LUXE CABIN MODERN (Photos #2 and #3) Appear to be two shots of the same room, to judge by the panelling and the ceiling design. B-57 closely matches this one.

Again, Rollie, these are only guesses. There are some differences in furniture design and placement between your pictures and the suite photos DEFINITELY taken on the Titanic, and I don't know if each DELUXE cabin was of totally unique design or whether there were several variations of each
design used. But, the numbers I gave are a starting point. JIM
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi Jim,

Yes, I think you're right about that B deck suite rooms. I also was looking to these ones in the same way as you. It's true that there are differences between the B deck pictures taken on Titanic and the photo's I was referring to, but It's possible that these pictures could show the identical situation as of some C deck suites.

But I have the problem that I have none idea in what style wich C deck suite was. Maybe you have some suggestions or otherwise Daniel Rosenshine may know it. He has allready give me some information about it.

BTW, the pictures give a good indication of what the windows and the furniture of the B deck suites may have looked like.

Greetings Rollie
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Hello Guys,

Those pictures are in the Harland and Wolff archive and I doubt that they were ever taken by the Dutch company. Also, all those pictures are from the Olympic.

Top row. Picture 1 is in Old Dutch style.
Picture 2 is Modern Dutch in oak with a brass
bed.
Middle Row. Picture 3 is in Louis XVI style
Picture 4 is also Modern Dutch in oak with a
brass bed.
Bottom picture, 5 is another Modern Dutch but in
sycamore, notice the wooden bed.

Picture 1 is Olympic's B48, also on Olympic cabin C66 would have looked exactly the same. On Titanic cabin C72 would have looked very similar. It was the same style but here as you can see there is a double washbasin in the middle with a wardrobe on either side. In C72, there was a double wardrobe in the middle with a washbasin on either side. Also as you know Titanic's B59 was decorated in the same style. I'm sure so were other cabins, but I don't know which ones.

Picture 2 is Olympic's C64. Titanic's C70 looked very similar and was decorated in the same style. Also, B57 was decorated in the same style.

Picture 3, is Olympic's B47, also Olympic's C65 was decorated in the same style and would have looked very similar, the only difference being, where here you can see a washbasin and dressing table, there would have been a double washbasin. On Titanic C63 would have looked like this and B58 was decorated in the same style.

Picture 4 is Olympic's B50. The only room on Titanic that would look like this is C70, but you'd need to flip this picture horizontally. This cabin is in the same style as Olympic's C64. On Olympic B and C deck period suited had similar furniture arrangements, and can be compared to Titanic's C deck, but not B deck as the suites themselves were of a different shape and had different furniture arrangements, but they were decorated in similar styles.

Picture 5 is Olympic's C68 and Olympic's B46 would have looked the same only horizontally flipped. On Titanic C74 would have looked very similar and B63 was decorated in the same style.

I hope this helps a tiny bit.

Daniel.
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the great information. It helps more than only a tiny bit! I don't know what to think anymore. I'm 100% certain that the pictures are from the archive of the Dutch firm who made the furniture for the suites in the picture. They told that the pictures were from Titanic, but I'm believing you when you say that they are from Olympic.

I think the firm made the furniture for all the rooms on Titanic with the same styles as mentioned above and which you can see on the pictures. That concludes that Mrs Baxters suite and two of the Ryerson suites on B deck were furnited by this Dutch firm.

BTW: I thought the two parlour suites on B deck were still in the same condition as on Olympic, but on that ship there was no private promenade.
The B deck suites on that ship looks the same as the ones on C deck, but they were a bit larger. The four Parlour suites on Titanic did have the same characterizes.

If you have some comments about this, I like to hear!

Much greetings Rollie
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
If you had deck plans of Olympic, this would help you immensely to understand the difference between Titanic and Olympic.

On Olympic, B deck had an enclosed promenade, much like the forward end of Titanic's A deck. On Titanic, there was no promenade. This area was occupied by the new B deck suites, that were extended all the way to the side of the ship. Thus the rooms became larger and had a different furniture arrangement. If you have first class plans of Titanic's accommodation, you will see that the cabins on B deck and C deck are arranged differently.

On Olympic, B deck and C deck cabins were of the same size and similar arrangements, which were similar to Titanic's C deck, but not B deck.

The two parlour suites B51 and B52 on Titanic were different to the two parlour suites on Olympic. The corresponding sitting rooms were still decorated in the same style, Adams and Louis XVI - in oak, but on Titanic the sitting rooms were larger and had different furniture arrangements, although it had the same articles of furniture as the rooms on the Olympic.

The pictures from the Dutch firm are the same as those in the H & W archive and they even have H & W markings and numbers, so they couldn't have been taken by the Dutch firm. In one of the pictures, I noticed that same H & W marking. I think it was the Modern Dutch in sycamore cabin, picture 5, of B46.

If I missed something or if you have further questions, please let me know and I'll see if I know the answer and can answer them.

Daniel.
 
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Rolf Vonk

Guest
Hi Daniel,

I do have the Olympic deckplans in front of me, but the cabin numbers aren't mentioned in the plan. Your points about Olympic are right.

Though I was wondering about the point from the B deck suites furniture. You told that those suites had a different furniture arrangement, but I thought that only the first 7 suites (including the parlour suite) on both sides of the ship had a different furniture arrangement. When you look at the detailed 1st class deckplan, you can see a kind of luxureous sofa instead of a bench.

I'll make a list to show you some information about the suites. Please tell me if it isn't correct!

Old Dutch in sycamore: B59, B78, C72
Old Dutch: B57, C70
New Dutch: B63, C74
Louis XVI: B52, B58, B76, C63
Regency: B60, C65
Empire: B64, B66 (a different empire), C57
Adams: B51, C55?

About C55 I have a question. Was it in the same style as the Cardeza sitting room wich you said it was Adams? I believe that the Adams style has a white panneling. Could this be true?

I agree with you about the pictures. I'm almost sure they are taken by a none-Dutch fotographer, but they are from a Dutch collection. Maybe a gift from H&W?

Hope you can do something with my information. I think I will have other questions about the suiterooms (I think Titanics interior is one of the most important aspects of the ship).

I'm looking forward to your responses!

Much greetings,

Rollie
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