Pictures of the Titanic's Dead


Jul 9, 2000
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Easley South Carolina
Whoa! SAM, TMonera, take it easy! All the hard feelings getcha nowhere and raise the blood pressure for no good perpose.

TMonera, I don't think there IS an answer to your question. Even if people of such orientation or any other such considered to be perverse were about on the ship, they would have nothing to gain by advertising the fact and a whole lot to lose. Remember what I said about prisons and mental institutions? That's where such people ended up if they were exposed. Those are the cold hard facts. 1912 was a VERY different era.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 

Philip Hind

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Daniel wrote:

>> The only surviving photos are in Charles Haas' collection. He however only has a few, 30 if I'm not over exaggerating it.

There are others in private collections.

Philip
 
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Sheila Pearce

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Does anyone know if there are any photos of the
dead in the archives at Halifax? My great uncle
James Henry Chapman is buried there,Sheila Pearce.
 
Sep 12, 2000
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It is interesting that now with DNA screening perhaps the victims (though unrecognizible) would possibly be able to be identified using technology if they were lost today and the bodies kept.

Philip Hind is on my list for sainthood (no matter what his religious background) next go round for his patience with this thread...I agreew with Mike Standart on all counts for repvious questions and agree with Phil about keeping our focus.

But when I die, I will haunt anyone who keeps an 8'x10' glossy of me when I am dead. Maureen.
 
Dec 12, 1999
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The Nova Scotia Archives and Records Management, at 6016 University Avenue in Halifax, Nova Scotia, holds detailed original documentation of Titanic's victims, including the photographs, business cards, letters and correspondence. It wasn't exactly clear from the description I have of them whether the Archives have the photos of the dead bodies. If you really want to pursue this, give them a telephone call. Speaking of "morbid," the table where John Jacob Astor was embalmed in purportedly on display at another location in Halifax.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi everyone,

On the rather morbid topic of bodies, I am currently trying (in vain) to put a name to some of the unidentified bodies that were recovered.
I'm sure that #39 was that of Lucien P. Smith, taking into account his age and attire (evening dress-he had not retired for the evening and dissuaded his wife from putting valuables in their pockets-hence lack of identification). If anyone else has any ideas about the others or disagreements over #39 please let me know
Ben
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Ben,

It's interesting, but I don't think it’s him. As it has been mentioned somewhere previously, considerable effort was put into identifying first class passengers, especially those that looked first class (i.e. attire or personal effects).

Although the families of the poor often couldn't, the families of the rich either went themselves or sent others (who knew the victims) to identify them. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the family and friends of L. P. Smith did go to try and identify a body.

Another thing, #39's hair color is 'dark.' As far as I know, the picture in J. B. Geller's book (the same picture was in the New York Times) shows Lucien with light colored hair, either brown or light brown.

Warm Regards,

Daniel.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Dear Daniel,
Thanks a lot for your info on #39. I don't know about you, but I'm still rather tantalized by the mystery of #39. It seems that even if the family did go to Halifax, they would have left disappointed as #39 was buried at sea. Other plausible alternatives could be Walter Miller Clark, Joseph Loring, Edgar Meyer, Daniel Marvin and Vivian Payne (in order of likelihood-most likely first).Do you agree? I don't think 2nd class passengers were obliged to wear tuxedo.
It would be greatly appreciated if you could tell me how I could get hold of pictures of passengers whose photos do not appear in the encyclopedia titanica biographies e.g L.P.Smith in New York Times etc.
Many Thanks again for the info.
Ben

P.S. Sorry if loads of people have asked you this, but are you any relation to George Rosenshine?
 

Mike Herbold

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Dec 13, 1999
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Ben and Daniel:
Regarding victim # 39 being Walter Miller Clark:

No. 39 - Male, estimated age 25. -- hair, dark.
Clothing: Evening dress trousers; black double breasted overcoat; brown jacket and vest; no boots.
Effects - Silver watch; sovereign purse containing one sovereign, silver ring, coins for 4s. 3d., and keys.
No Marks on clothing or papers.

From pictures I've seen of Walter Miller Clark, Age 27, it's hard to tell what color his hair was, but it appears to be light on top and slightly receeding.

He had been up late playing cards with Howard Case and three gamblers, so he would have had his shoes on and some identification and more money on his person. Hopefully my buddy George Brayton-Bradley-Brereton wasn't one of those gambling with him, but it appears likely.

According to Don Lynch (Commutator v. 15, #4, 1991-2), Virginia Clark came up to the Smoking Room looking for her husband 20 minutes after Titanic hit the iceberg. Clark finally left his card game and he and Virginia went down to their room. "Walter changed from his evening clothes into heavy underwear and an ordinary suit. Virginia dressed warmly as well, and then, picking up some valuables, heavy overcoats, their lifejackets and Virginia's furs, they left their stateroom."

Later, when they were back on deck "Walter asked Virginia if she had her purse, and when she replied that she didn't he ran down to his stateroom to get one for her. When he returned he was wearing his lifejacket. He then handed her some money, saying "We may be seperated and you might need this.""

It's possible Clark was bilked out of all his money, or gave it all to Virginia, or that he forget to switch his wallet when he changed, but it doesn't seem likely since he made a special trip to get his wife's purse. It's also possible that his shoes came off, but most recovered bodies still had the shoes on. Also, Victim #39 seemed to have dressier pants than Clark's.

IMHO, #39 wasn't Walter Miller Clark.

Mike Herbold
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Mike,

I can't thank you enough for your fascinating info on the Clarks. I used to consider myself a bit of an authority on the 1st class passengers but nothing like that. Walter seems an interesting character. I have been trying for ages to find out more about him and Virginia.
Do you know who they were acquainted with on board?

Thanks to you and Daniel I am narrowing down my search for #39. I have crossed Smith and Clark off the list. I now think Loring could be our man.

I wouldn't want to steal any research you are doing, but I would be interested to know how I could get hold of a copy of the book containing the info on Clark. It would be great also to see a photo of him.
Many thanks again to you and Daniel. Please don't hesitate to suggest other alternatives to the illusive #39.
Ben
 

Mike Herbold

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Dec 13, 1999
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Ben:
Don Lynch's two-part article on the Clark Family was published in the Titanic Historical Society quarterly journal "The Titanic Commutator" in early 1992. Your question about the identity of body #39 is interesting. You could try the same puzzle on many of the unidentified. Daniel does that kind of exercise often, and I know Michael Poirier does, too. You might not find the answer, but you sure learn a lot in the meantime.
Drop me a note offline.
Mike Herbold
[email protected]

P.S.: I'm personally interested in the Clarks because they lived here in southern California. As a matter of fact, I live just a few miles from the church that is foot-noted in Clark's biography here on ET. The name of the street that starts in Long Beach and goes north for about nearly 20 miles and passes within a block of that church is Clark Avenue -- named after the Clark family (but not necessarily Walter).
 

George Behe

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Dec 11, 1999
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Ben Holme wrote:

> Walter seems an interesting character. I have >been trying for ages to
>find out more about him and Virginia.
>Do you know who they were acquainted with on >board?

Hi, Ben!

Mrs. Clark was acquainted with Edith Rosenbaum; she was chatting with Edith when Walter approached her and received her 'permission' to go up to the smoking room to play cards.

Some things never change. :)

All my best,

George
 

Mike Poirier

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Dec 12, 1999
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I doubt it was Joe Loring as he and George Rheims stripped down to their underwear before jumping.
Perhaps it could be someone lesser known such as Ben Foreman. Or perhaps Milton Long did not get sucked under as feared. We'll never know as the body was buried at sea.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi George
Many thanks for the info on Clark/Rosenbaum. Evidently, gambling was frowned upon.
I wonder how successful he was!
It seems Miss Rosenbaum was a bit of a socialite.
Warm Regards
Ben
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Michael,
Info on Loring appreciated. I heard from the affidavit of Olaus Ableseth that there was a man on collapsible A with only underwear on. He had "a wife and child". I presume this refers to Rheims, but did Loring ever make it to the boat?
Benjamin L. Foreman is a very good suggestion.
It must be him, Payne or Marvin. Edgar Meyer is unlikely as he was in bed at the time of the collision. It couldn't be Milton Long as his body was recovered, #126.
I'm slowly getting to the bottom of this one!
Ben
 
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Daniel Rosenshine

Guest
Hi,

I was under the impression, that anyone who even in the slightest resembled anyone (either by dress or effects) first class, their body was not buried at sea but regardless of deformity or decomposure was brought to Halifax.

If #39 was a first class passenger, this must have been some unlucky unrecognizable one. Other than that, it is possible that it was a second-class passenger. Second class on Titanic was first class on many other ships thus evening dress would have been required. I'm sure both ladies and men in second class did dress reasonably well for dinner, however I doubt as affluently as first class.

Ok, scratch all that, wasn't Molson seen taking his shoes off and jumping overboard?!

Daniel.
 

Mike Poirier

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Dec 12, 1999
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I don't know where my head was when I typed Long. I had meant to type Giglio. But as always my concentration was elsewhere.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Hi Daniel!
I agree that #39 must have had some pretty grotesque deformations to be buried at sea. I'm still convinced he was first class, and thanks again to all those who have helped me so far with this little mystery! I am intrigued to know where that source about Molson removing his shoes came from originally. He and Ramon Artagaveytia must have put into practice experiences from other sinkings. They say the same thing about Percival and Richard White (removing shoes etc). But when young Richard's body was recovered, guess what he was wearing...white shoes!
Very best regards
Ben
Oh, and Michael..easily done, but wasn't Giglio last seen without a lifejacket next to Ben Guggenheim?
 

Mike Herbold

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Ben:
Alan Hustak talks about Molson taking his shoes off in his book, and also relates how he had survived two previous shipwrecks by swimming away.
 
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Ben Thomas Sebastian Holme

Guest
Thanks Mike!
I have just ordered the book about the Canadian passengers (I think it's by Hustak). Does Hustak give any evidence as to who was an eye-witness to this?
Ben
 

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