Pieces of the wreck for sale

Hi,

I was at a talk in Dundee with Steve Rigby, the Secretary of the British Titanic Society about his dive to Titanic last year. He said he supports the salvage of artefacts from the wreck of Titanic as many things have been recovered from the wreck of Lusitania. He said dealers in Ocean liner memorabilia sell portholes and other bits. Is this true and if so, what do people feel about it? What is the going rate for a piece of the Lusitania?

Stuart
 
Steve's views are his own and do not reflect the views of the British Titanic Society. As a Society it would be wrong to impose our own views on the membership. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and there are pros and cons on both sides. Lusitania has been fair game for many years, you can pick up virtually anything in Liverpool or other maritime ports. Whether it's right or wrong is covered elsewhere on this board.
My point is that if it's morally acceptable to loot other wrecks, why is so much commotion made over the Titanic? I can argue this point until I'm blue in the face but I never seem to receive a satisfactory reply!

Geoff Whitfield
Secretary British Titanic Society
 
Geoff- looks like we may never get one either- on this thread or any other. I should think that one would regard the Lusitania disaster with MORE emotion considering Titanic- a tragedy though it was- was the result of a freak collision with Nature's icy obstacle. Lusitania was a premeditated, deliberate, and calculated assault on human life - with another human being on the other end of that periscope. That it was extolled as spoils of war by the Germans makes no difference to me- under the circumstance it comes across as near-murder. Maybe if it had been Lusy's maiden voyage and the war had not been raging, she would get more respect. Apparently numbers lost have nothing to do with degree of concern for the wreck- nor illustrious passenger list. Maybe it was just plain timing that garners Titanic the lion's share of attention and arouses the protective urge. Then there's the sad case of the Empress. . .
 
Hi, Stuart:

In 1989, the first two of the salvaged Lusitana pieces were placed on the auction block in London. They were the crow's nest bell and the whistle from the second funnel. Because of the limited interest in the auction (more than likely brought about by a lack of proper advertising), the prices realized were ridiculously low, and Oceaneering decided against publicly auctioning the remaining items.

A year later Oceaneering contacted a few individuals (Ken Marschall and I being two of them) and held a sealed-bid auction to sell off the artifacts that were still in their possession. Nearly all the available items were purchased during this sale. Most went into private collections, but a dealer in Southampton bought a number of smaller pieces for resale -- mostly watch cases and movements -- and some better items for his own collection.

You asked what the going rate is for a piece of the Lusitania. That's hard to answer because none of the really nice artifacts have come up for sale for the last ten years. I'll reiterate that the prices Oceaneering got for the items were far short of their true value. For example, right after I purchased the whistle at Sotheby's, a well-known dealer told a friend of mine that he would have paid three times what I did for it.

My stance on salvage must be fairly obvious to anyone reading this, but I'd like to say that the salvaged items I own were purchased only after coming to an agreement with the Los Angeles Maritime Museum that these artifacts would be placed on permanent display. After traveling to England, working out a deal for the items, and purchasing them, the man in charge of the museum changed his mind and decided he didn't want to display any of them. To this day, no good reason has ever been offered.

Having bought all these items, I then contacted a number of other museums in an effort to place them on permanent loan, most notably the Merseyside Maritime Museum in Lusitania's home port of Liverpool. Each museum in turn declined. Again, with no reasonable explanation given. Merseyside feebly told me that "we don't have a Lusitania display." I thought that strange considering that just a short time later a major Titanic/Lusitania exhibit opened.

I'm pleased to say, though, that over the years the whistle and a few smaller items have been lent to museums for exhibition. The most recent display of the whistle was at the Seamen's Church Institute in New York for their Liners at War exhibit.

As for the salvage views of BTS, Geoff wrote: "As a Society it would be wrong to impose our own views on the membership."

Let the members think for themselves? Wow, what a novel idea....

Geoff then said: "My point is that if it's morally acceptable to loot other wrecks, why is so much commotion made over the Titanic?"

I really wish I could answer your question, Geoff. I have no idea why people think it is okay for salvagers to work some wrecks (like Lusitania, Empress of Ireland, and Andrea Doria) when bringing up items from Titanic is one of the worst crimes against humanity. A number of very good friends of mine and fellow researchers are anti-salvage and we've discussed the issue at length, and although I respect their opinions, I do not agree with them.

"I can argue this point until I'm blue in the face but I never seem to receive a satisfactory reply!"

And I don't think you ever will. People's views on salvage are usually emotionally driven, and Titanic seems always to be placed in a category all its own although no one has yet to explain to me in non-emotional terms why salvaging Titanic is bad but it's okay for other wrecks. Were the lives lost in other shipwrecks any less valuable than those lost on Titanic? I think not. So why the difference?

Eric Sauder
 
Hi Eric,

Thanks for the info. I would guess the dealer in Southampton is Peter Boyd-Smith. I'm told (by Steve) you can get wreck bits from his shop.

Did you ever think of approaching the Transport Museum at the Kelvin Hall to display the Lusitania artefacts? What about Clydebank museum which, though small, is only a few hundred yards away from the site of Lusitania's building? The transport museum is where the builder's plate from the Queen Elizabeth was recently put on display having been donated by the former chief of the Hong Kong Fire Brigade. Clydeside would be a very fitting place to have a piece of the Lusitania I think. I think it would encourage people here to talk up their shipbuilding heritage a bit more which I wish they would do. People here should talk about the Lusitania, HMS Hood and the Queens the same way people in Northern Ireland talk about the Titanic.

Stuart
 
Eric, is it correct that the ships bell went to someone in Wales?

Also i watched the BBC newsnight programme in 1982 what happened to the baby's pot that was brought up- if i remember rightly some of the divers were upset at finding it!


Cliff
 
On the issue of salvage, I'm still "anti" but not just regarding Titanic. I think any catastrophic wreck ought to be left alone and not be plucked clean like some dead animal in a desert.

What Cameron is doing with his expeditions is quite different, of course, or what Ballard tried to do when he went to Titanic and Lusitania. I am fully behind the cause of understanding more about these great ships. But I don't see why we need to scavenge for souvenirs from the wreck sites. To me it's just plain morbid.

My opinion is only mine. It might be emotional but how can such a subject be otherwise?

Having said this, I am totally accepting of others' views. I realize that friends like Shelley and Eric who are on the other side of this question are far from being unsympathetic about the disasters that overtook these ships and the many innocent lives which were lost with them. They just see it all differently.

By the way, I think its wonderful that much of what has been brought up from Lusitania is at least in the hands of caring people like Eric, rather than some vulture looking to turn a profit.

In closing,I want to stress one thing. I can't speak for others, but never have I felt that Lusitania was less deserving of respect in the matter of salvage. I think that owing to the nature of Lusitania's demise, which was absolutely unconscionable and horrific, it should more than any other sunken ship be protected from pirating.
 
Stuart, if you have it, would you send me the address for the Transport Museum at the Kelvin Hall? I'm considering the possibility of giving various museums another shot at some of the artifacts (because some are just way too large for me to keep at home). I recall you sent me some photos a while back of the QE's builder's plate, and the display looked quite good

Cliff, I never found out who bought Lusitania's bell, but it was up for auction again a number of years ago. The reserve on it was so high that there were no bids.

I remember that BBC show as well. I don't know where they got the name "baby's pot," but what was brought up was a simple chamber pot, decorated with ivy leaves.

Eric Sauder
 
Hi Eric,

Coincidentally, the Transport Museum has been in the news lately as it is moving to a new home in 2007.
eveningtimes.co.uk/cgi-bin/page?t=newspapers.news&id=5007999

The address is:
Glasgow Museum of Transport
Kelvin Hall
1 Bunhouse Road
Glasgow G3 8DP
Scotland
+44 (0) 141-221-9600

There's a couple of good links about it at:
and
glasgowwestend.co.uk/out/galleries/transport.html
 
I bought a Lusitania watch casing from 'Cobwebs' years ago, but alas, LOST it in one of my many moves!!!! Hopefully someday ill be able to aquire somthing else from Lusitania..

Tarn Stephanos
 
Hi Tarn, Now if you had said that you had bought some salvage from the Titanic, half of the E.T. Board would be willing to lynch you! It will be interesting to see how many people respond to your post in a negative way. As one who has property from the Empress of Ireland, I am not in a position to make any criticism of anybody and respect that everybody has their own opinion. I hope that you are, indeed, able to replace the missing material.

Geoff
 
Hey, Geoff:

You said: "Now if you had said that you had bought some salvage from the Titanic, half of the E.T. Board would be willing to lynch you!"

It's the old double standard again. Lusitania's bones are okay to pick clean and very few people bother to raise their voices because she’s an “unpopular” shipwreck, but when it comes to Titanic, watch out….

Eric
 
Hi, Randy:

I realize that. If you reread what I wrote, I said that "very few people bother to raise their voices."

Obviously, you're one of those very, very few people. Remember, though, that you are but one of hundreds, if not thousands, of people on this board. I'd like to hear from others who also think there's a double standard at work here

Eric
 
Eric,

I was only reminding you that you were supported, in case you guys doubted it.

I know I am but one of many on the board. I was just thinking that in the event there wasn't much response to this sensitive issue, that one supportive voice was better than none. And so I was proud to say my bit.

Peace,

Randy
 
Back
Top