Port side lifeboat policy: WHO enforced it?

[Arun Vajpey]

Almost all of us (including me, of course) have commented on multiple occasions about the obvious difference in lifeboat loading policy on the port and starboard sides of the sinking Titanic on that fateful night. On the starboard side, Murdoch followed the logical policy of women and children first, but men if there was room and no more women or children immediately available. As a result of that policy, perhaps up to 100 men survived and so indirectly owed their lives to Murdoch.

On the port side on the other hand, Lightoller apparently followed the policy of women and children only......period. Excluding 'volunteers' like Major Peuchen and Charles Williams and some interlopers like Neshan Krekorian, that policy was strictly followed. So, it would not be unfair to say that perhaps 50 or 60 men needlessly lost their lives because of it.

But was it really Lightoller who enforced that policy?

On the starboard side Murdoch was the senior-most officer and so one can assume that it was actually he who set the pattern of loading lifboats. Furthermore, Murdoch was at least partly involved with loading of all properly launched starboard lifeboats and so would have had a chance to issue specific orders accordingly. On the port side on the other hand, Lightoller came third in pecking order after Captain Smith (who appears to have been mostly on the port side) and Wilde; so would he have had the authority to enforce such a "women and children only" rule without approval of one or both of the other two gentlemen? Moreover, Lightoller was not involved with the loading of Lifeboats #16, #14, #10 and #2 and likely shared responsibility with Wilde for Lifeboats #8 and Collapsible D; and yet, #16 #14 and #2 appear to have followed the same "women and children only" policy to a large extent. Since neither Smith nor Wilde survived, how can we tell if one of them did not order Lightoller to load lifeboats the way he did?

 

[Brad Walton]

Interesting points raised in your question.

 

[George Jacub]

The Chief Officer, Wilde, was in charge on the boats on the port side of the Titanic while the next senior officer, First Officer Murchoch, was in charge on starboard.
Able seaman Frederick Clench's testimony at the Senate Inquiry made it crystal clear who gave the orders about loading passengers at boats No. 12, 14 and 16.
Mr. CLENCH.
... I got the three (port) boats out, and we lowered them down level with the boat deck. Then I assisted Mr. Lightoller --
Mr. CLENCH.
... Him and me stood on the gunwale of the boat helping load the women and children in. The chief officer was passing them along to us, and we filled the three boats like that.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Mr. CLENCH.
... Him and me stood on the gunwale of the boat helping load the women and children in. The chief officer was passing them along to us, and we filled the three boats like that.

That makes nothing "crystal clear" and is not what this thread is about. It only confirms what is already known - that Wilde had overall charge druing the latter stages of loading and lowering of lifeboats #16, #14 and probably #12. By then, the "women and children only" policy on the port side was already in place, with lifeboats #8 and #6 launched earlier.

What I wondered was who put that policy in place on the port side in the first place. Until now we have assumed that it was Lightoller (and still might have been) but as I said Captain Smith and Wilde outranked him.

 

[James Murdoch]

I remember the occasion whereby Lightoller almost refused a boy as young of 14, a place in a boat, forcing his father to intervene. I believe he enforced this exclusively due to his interpretation of Women and Children first as Women and Children ONLY.
It is my personal belief that it was he and he alone who interpreted and implemented this order; after all, it was he who cusped his hand over Smiths ear and asked, "Shouldn't we get the Woman and Children into the boats, sir?". To which Smith nodded. Also, on launching the first three or so boats, he didn't believe Titanic was going to sink. I believe he took his conversation with Smith as an order and confirmation of the policy he later enforced so strictly.


PS: Arun, I have watched the documentaries on the cave rescue and thoroughly enjoyed them. Popcorn and the movie tonight ☺️

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I remember the occasion whereby Lightoller almost refused a boy as young of 14, a place in a boat, forcing his father to intervene. I believe he enforced this exclusively due to his interpretation of Women and Children first as Women and Children ONLY.

Yes, that boy was John Ryerson, aged 13 years and 3 months at the time. He was about to enter Lifeboat #4 with his mother when Lightoller shouted that the boy could not go; the father Arthur Ryerson, successfully argued that the lad should go with his mother. Lightoller relented but is supposed to have continued to mutter "no more boys".

Arthur Ryerson himself was lost, of course.

It is my personal belief that it was he and he alone who interpreted and implemented this order;

That is more difficult to be certain. As I said, Lightoller was third in the pecking order after Captain Smith and Wilde on the port side. Also, Lightoller was not involved in the loading of Lifeboats #16, #14 and #2 and shared responsibility with Wilde, his senior, for Lifeboats #8 and Collapsible D; the same "women and children only" policy was folowed (excluding enlistments and interlopers) in all of them.

Of course, he was not involved with Lifeboat #10 at all, which was loaded and lowered by Murdoch.

It is possible that either Smith or Wilde ordered Lightoller to load only women and children; as both those men were lost, we'll never know.

 

[James Murdoch]

Yeah Arun, unfortunately it is one of things lost to history, we will never know for certain.

 

[George Jacub]

Let me restate the obvious. Wilde was in charge of loading the port boats. He alone decided who would go into No. 12, No. 14, and No.16 (until he left to go to load the forward boats). It's extremely unlikely that he changed his opinion, on allowing men, from the loading of the forward boats to the loading of the aft boats.
Was he following the Captain's order? Appearances indicate that the senior officers (Wilde and Murdoch) were allowed to use their own judgement regarding who was put into lifeboats. Even Murdoch was reluctant to allow men near the boats after the Fraunthal brothers and two others jumped into No. 3, threatening to overturn the boat. He armed himself to maintain order at No. 5 on.
According to Lightoller, the initial plan was to load the lifeboats from a lower deck. Filling the boats with men on the Boat Deck would make that extremely difficult if not impossible.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Appearances indicate that the senior officers (Wilde and Murdoch) were allowed to use their own judgement regarding who was put into lifeboats

That might well be the case.

Even Murdoch was reluctant to allow men near the boats after the Fraunthal brothers and two others jumped into No. 3, threatening to overturn the boat. He armed himself to maintain order at No. 5 on.

I don't know where you got that information from. Lifeboat #5 was lowered at about 12:47 am, before Lifeboat #3 at 12:55 am. I have not seen any evidence that Murdoch or anyone else (other than Lowe who had his own firearm) was armed before 01:15 am; that was when the senior officers and probably Captain Smith collected handguns.

The first verified incidence of a gun being fired was when Lowe reportedly fired along the side of the ship when some men tried to rush Lifeboat #14 when it was being lowered at 01:25 am.

 

[vincent412]

It is my understanding that there was a marina at the stern of t g e ship, where the second and third class passengers can board lifeboats. Captain Smith had sent one if his two Yeomen to help set it up. The boats, after they're in the water, were supposed to go to the marina and fill up, so if they were filled with men, there would be no room at the marina. Unfortunately, the boats just pulled away, leaving those at the marina stranded, and the boats half empty.

 

[James Murdoch]

Are you referring to the D deck gangway door? If you are Lightoller ordered it opened but that was about it, no lifeboats picked anyone up from it. And that has nothing at all to do with the boats being "half empty". Also second class passengers could reach the boatdeck unimpeded. I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what point you are trying to make.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what point you are trying to make.

Same here. Not sure what "Marina" the poster is referring to and there was np specially designated area meant for Second or Third Class passengers to board lifeboats.

As for the Gangway Door story, we have only Lightoller's testimony - and a vague one at that - about it. Lightoller seemed uncertain whether he meant the gangway door or D-deck or E-deck and in any case, by then the E-deck door was too close to the sea. IMO if that order was given while Lightoller and Nichols were working on Lifeboat #6, it is likely that the latter, realising the impracticality of the plan, did not get any gangway door opened at all. For the present I am sticking with Bill Wormstedt's revised schedule of Lifeboat launch times and going by that Lifeboat #6 was launched from the port side at 01:10 am. The boat contained characters like Molly Brown, QM Hichens and Major Peuchen among others and no one reported seeing any gangway doors open at their lifeboat rowed past.

 

[Brad Walton]

Same here. Not sure what "Marina" the poster is referring to and there was np specially designated area meant for Second or Third Class passengers to board lifeboats.

As for the Gangway Door story, we have only Lightoller's testimony - and a vague one at that - about it. Lightoller seemed uncertain whether he meant the gangway door or D-deck or E-deck and in any case, by then the E-deck door was too close to the sea. IMO if that order was given while Lightoller and Nichols were working on Lifeboat #6, it is likely that the latter, realising the impracticality of the plan, did not get any gangway door opened at all. For the present I am sticking with Bill Wormstedt's revised schedule of Lifeboat launch times and going by that Lifeboat #6 was launched from the port side at 01:10 am. The boat contained characters like Molly Brown, QM Hichens and Major Peuchen among others and no one reported seeing any gangway doors open at their lifeboat rowed past.

Arun, which schedule is Bill Wormstedt's? Is it the one in "On a Sea of Glass"?

 

[James Murdoch]

I know how unreliable Boxhall was, but when the boat he was in launched he was instructed to row round to the other side of the ship. It was at this point two opportunistic characters (who can blame them) basically stepped off the port bow on A or B deck and into his boat. They actually thought they were going to be shot by Lights, but he relinquished. I am sorry for being vague, it is not by intention, I am on my phone on the way to work.

Anyway, I am quite sure he reported on his boat there were a mass of people thronging at a door, on E deck near the stern( perhaps in desperation it had been forced open by the passengers and it wasnt the one Lightoller instructed be opened). Boxhall stated he "Darent go near them, for fear of getting swamped". I am sure his boat #2 touched the water around 1.50, as (according to Boxhall) by the time they reached the stern the propellers were prominently protruding from the water.

 

[James Murdoch]

Arun, which schedule is Bill Wormstedt's? Is it the one in "On a Sea of Glass"?

I am unsure what one Arun uses, but I use this one, Wornstedt, Fitch et al.

Lifeboat Launching Sequence Re-Examined