Prominent Non-Passengers Morgan and Hershey
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Nicolas Roughol
Guest
This question may have been answered before, but I couldn't find it around here. We all know that JP Morgan was in France in early April 1912, with a mistress of his, and not ill at all though he claimed to be (the official reason for canceling his trip).
Yet I wonder where exactly he was staying. I received some three years ago through my website an email claiming that JP Morgan was staying in a little town called Plombií¨res-les-Bains. As its names indicates, Plombií¨res-les-Bains is a thermal city, located in North-East France, and it's very close (about 20 miles) to the city I live in (Epinal). Plombií¨res-Les-Bains was extremely famous in the 19th century (Napoleon III turned it into his main residence while out of Paris, and signed there the treaty that would lead to the creation of Italy as it exists today) and remained so up to the 1950s. It has since quite declined, but is still offering thermal treatments, along with other famous cities in the area such as Vittel and Contrexéville...
Together with the email was a JPG of a postcard, dated 1910 if I remember well, that showed one of Plombií¨res finest hotels at that time. That hotel is now an abandonned place (well, sort of, it is closed although still taken care of). And the email author suggested that it might be the very hotel JP Morgan stayed at.
I don't know if any of this is true at all, however I wonder if any of you out here have already heard about this. I don't have that postcard anymore, I lost it when my hard drive crashed on me not so long afterwards. But considering the fame Plombií¨res had at that time, I don't find it impossible. And considering JP Morgan age in 1912, he might have been there to treat arthritis, or something similar
This early-century poster advertising for Plombieres tells it all: "rheumatism, enteritis...I get cured at Plombií¨res-Les-Bains, only 6 hours from Paris, direct trains"...
Yet I wonder where exactly he was staying. I received some three years ago through my website an email claiming that JP Morgan was staying in a little town called Plombií¨res-les-Bains. As its names indicates, Plombií¨res-les-Bains is a thermal city, located in North-East France, and it's very close (about 20 miles) to the city I live in (Epinal). Plombií¨res-Les-Bains was extremely famous in the 19th century (Napoleon III turned it into his main residence while out of Paris, and signed there the treaty that would lead to the creation of Italy as it exists today) and remained so up to the 1950s. It has since quite declined, but is still offering thermal treatments, along with other famous cities in the area such as Vittel and Contrexéville...
Together with the email was a JPG of a postcard, dated 1910 if I remember well, that showed one of Plombií¨res finest hotels at that time. That hotel is now an abandonned place (well, sort of, it is closed although still taken care of). And the email author suggested that it might be the very hotel JP Morgan stayed at.
I don't know if any of this is true at all, however I wonder if any of you out here have already heard about this. I don't have that postcard anymore, I lost it when my hard drive crashed on me not so long afterwards. But considering the fame Plombií¨res had at that time, I don't find it impossible. And considering JP Morgan age in 1912, he might have been there to treat arthritis, or something similar
This early-century poster advertising for Plombieres tells it all: "rheumatism, enteritis...I get cured at Plombií¨res-Les-Bains, only 6 hours from Paris, direct trains"...
Alicia Windsor
Guest
That's interesting, because I read somewhere that Morgan was in Aix-les-Bains in France during the maiden voyage. Can't remember where I read that though. I'll let you know if I can find the source.
Mark Chirnside
Member
Hi Alicia!
Likely, as not, it was Gardiner's (and co-author der Vat's) 'The Riddle of the Titanic' from 1995.
Best,
Mark.
Likely, as not, it was Gardiner's (and co-author der Vat's) 'The Riddle of the Titanic' from 1995.
Best,
Mark.
Nicolas Roughol
Guest
Alicia, Mark, thanks for the info. Do you know if any other "serious" source locates JP Morgan in Aix-les-Bains? Due to the very nature of the Gardiner book, I don't consider it to be a valuable proof
Mark Baber
RIP
MAB Note: The "last Sunday" referred to in the paragraph beginning "Mrs. Burns..." was, of course, 14 April.
The New York Times, 18 April 1912
RULERS COMPLIMENT MORGAN ON BIRTHDAY
---
Financier 75 Years Old Yesterday-Is at Aix and in Excellent Health
---
DISASTER ALTERS HIS PLANS
---
He Continually Seeks News Regarding the Titanic Catastrophe-Postpones Ceremony at Aix
---
Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES
---
AIX-LES-BAINS, April 17---THE NEW YORK TIMES correspondent, who traveled to Aix for the purpose of conveying greetings of THE NEW YORK TIMES to J. Pierpont Morgan on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, found the financier in excellent health.
Although, owing to a delay in train connection, the correspondent did not reach Aix until 10 P.M. yesterday, Mr. Morgan, who is occupying at the Grand Hotel the same rooms that he has always retained for the last eighteen years, received him immediately, and cordially expressed warm thanks when birthday congratulations were tendered to him on behalf of THE NEW YORK TIMES.
Mr. Morgan was looking wonderfully well and very sunburnt after his holiday in Egypt, where, he said, he had a most delightful holiday. Time has, indeed, dealt gently with him. None would think the hale looking man, with the bright, critical eye of the connoisseur, was celebrating his seventy-fifth birthday.
[Four paragraphs omitted.]
Mrs. Burns, Mr. Morgan's sister, who arrived with him from Florence last Sunday also keenly felt the shock of the Titanic calamity. The people of Aix have grown accustomed to her invariable kindness toward them, and are proud of the fact that Mr. Morgan chose their town in which to pass his seventy-fifth birthday.
Mr. Morgan has apparently no idea of retiring from active life. In fact, there is no one more intensely interested in the world's affairs than he.
He is one of the few men of note who do not take physical exercise. He says he finds the best rule for health to be contentment, cheerfulness, and not to expect too much from others-a motto similar to that of Andrew Carnegie. At present he is taking sulphur baths and massage every morning, and occasionally the Nauheim treatment which is given here.
-30-
The New York Times, 18 April 1912
RULERS COMPLIMENT MORGAN ON BIRTHDAY
---
Financier 75 Years Old Yesterday-Is at Aix and in Excellent Health
---
DISASTER ALTERS HIS PLANS
---
He Continually Seeks News Regarding the Titanic Catastrophe-Postpones Ceremony at Aix
---
Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES
---
AIX-LES-BAINS, April 17---THE NEW YORK TIMES correspondent, who traveled to Aix for the purpose of conveying greetings of THE NEW YORK TIMES to J. Pierpont Morgan on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, found the financier in excellent health.
Although, owing to a delay in train connection, the correspondent did not reach Aix until 10 P.M. yesterday, Mr. Morgan, who is occupying at the Grand Hotel the same rooms that he has always retained for the last eighteen years, received him immediately, and cordially expressed warm thanks when birthday congratulations were tendered to him on behalf of THE NEW YORK TIMES.
Mr. Morgan was looking wonderfully well and very sunburnt after his holiday in Egypt, where, he said, he had a most delightful holiday. Time has, indeed, dealt gently with him. None would think the hale looking man, with the bright, critical eye of the connoisseur, was celebrating his seventy-fifth birthday.
[Four paragraphs omitted.]
Mrs. Burns, Mr. Morgan's sister, who arrived with him from Florence last Sunday also keenly felt the shock of the Titanic calamity. The people of Aix have grown accustomed to her invariable kindness toward them, and are proud of the fact that Mr. Morgan chose their town in which to pass his seventy-fifth birthday.
Mr. Morgan has apparently no idea of retiring from active life. In fact, there is no one more intensely interested in the world's affairs than he.
He is one of the few men of note who do not take physical exercise. He says he finds the best rule for health to be contentment, cheerfulness, and not to expect too much from others-a motto similar to that of Andrew Carnegie. At present he is taking sulphur baths and massage every morning, and occasionally the Nauheim treatment which is given here.
-30-
Nicolas Roughol
Guest
Mark, thanks a lot for that
It definitely clears up the matter...
It definitely clears up the matter...
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
Old J.P.'s reason for being in Aix les Bain instead of on Titanic was to spend time with his mistress, according to several Morgan biographies. Apparently as was his custom, his girlfriend was "installed" in his suite at the hotel before he arrived. I certainly hope that "lady" was well-compensated for her services in April 1912 since her irresistible charms were what saved the old libertine's life.
Inger Sheil
Member
I came across that story again recently from a roundabout source, Randy - one of those funny '6 degrees of separation' situations. One of my father's oldest journo cronies and prominent figure in the development of television in Australia is married to an American. Some years ago they moved to the US, and one of his great mates over there is a member of the Morgan family - the two enjoy yachting together on Chesapeake Bay. When the subject of the Titanic came up, the Morgan descendant himself mentioned that J.P. was with his mistress at the time. But then, that could be a story that the family heard later...perhaps even derived from the very biographies that you refer to!
Mark Baber
RIP
The New York Times, 20 April 1912
MORGAN STOPS FESTIVITIES
---
Deeply Affected by the Disaster, He Halts Aix Celebration
---
AIX LES BAINS, France, April 19---J. Pierpont Morgan, who has arrived here to participate in to-day's inauguration of the sanitarium he has built in honor of his former physician, Leon Blanc, countermanded the festivities arranged for the occasion on account of the disaster to the Titanic.
Mr. Morgan is greatly affected by the catastrophe and the great loss of life. He is in constant cable communication with New York relative to the fate of his friends and the measures taken for the relief of the survivors.
-30-
MORGAN STOPS FESTIVITIES
---
Deeply Affected by the Disaster, He Halts Aix Celebration
---
AIX LES BAINS, France, April 19---J. Pierpont Morgan, who has arrived here to participate in to-day's inauguration of the sanitarium he has built in honor of his former physician, Leon Blanc, countermanded the festivities arranged for the occasion on account of the disaster to the Titanic.
Mr. Morgan is greatly affected by the catastrophe and the great loss of life. He is in constant cable communication with New York relative to the fate of his friends and the measures taken for the relief of the survivors.
-30-
David F. Smith
Member
I can't say about where he was then, but I sure can tell you where he is now! Cedar Hill Cemetary in Hartford, Connecticut. His family monument is about 20 feet tall, and designed in the shape of the Arc of the covenent. It is within walking distance of my house.
Randy Bryan Bigham
Member
In Alfred Allan Lewis' "Ladies and Not-So-Gentle Women" (2000), a collective biography including Anne Morgan, the author writes that old J.P. (Anne's father) was shipping his art collection to New York and that it would have gone with him had he decided to take Titanic.
The book also talks about J.P. Morgan's pursuit of Lady Sackville-West, an interest which had fizzled by 1912. Morgan had consoled himself with a new French mistress, it is stated, with whom he "was taking the waters" when he learned at Aix les Bains of Titanic's sinking.
His daughter, along with her friends Elsie de Wolfe and Elisabeth Marbury, arrived in Paris from the US on May 9 (they had sailed aboard the France). She did not see her father, however, until later in the month owing to her commitment to a trip to Spain with her friends. When she saw him, she found him "deeply depressed by the sinking of the Titanic."
The author adds, a bit cynically, that Morgan's depression was "as much because it was the end of his dream of a fleet of transatlantic liners to rival Cunard as for the loss of life."
The book also talks about J.P. Morgan's pursuit of Lady Sackville-West, an interest which had fizzled by 1912. Morgan had consoled himself with a new French mistress, it is stated, with whom he "was taking the waters" when he learned at Aix les Bains of Titanic's sinking.
His daughter, along with her friends Elsie de Wolfe and Elisabeth Marbury, arrived in Paris from the US on May 9 (they had sailed aboard the France). She did not see her father, however, until later in the month owing to her commitment to a trip to Spain with her friends. When she saw him, she found him "deeply depressed by the sinking of the Titanic."
The author adds, a bit cynically, that Morgan's depression was "as much because it was the end of his dream of a fleet of transatlantic liners to rival Cunard as for the loss of life."
Jordan Brown
Member
First off... wow. Quite a large community we have here.
I'm looking for information on people who were onboard, people who were onboard but made it out alive, and people who had tickets but didn't actually board.
I've read that JP Morgan and Milton Hershey had tickets, but I've seen no documentation on that, though I've seen it stated here that Morgan did indeed have tickets but canceled.
At any rate, is there a resource that has all of this information compiled? Thanks in advance!
I'm looking for information on people who were onboard, people who were onboard but made it out alive, and people who had tickets but didn't actually board.
I've read that JP Morgan and Milton Hershey had tickets, but I've seen no documentation on that, though I've seen it stated here that Morgan did indeed have tickets but canceled.
At any rate, is there a resource that has all of this information compiled? Thanks in advance!
Mark Robert Hopkins
Member
Jordan,
Welcome to the site! We look forward to sharing with you and, hopefully, partaking in some of your valuable knowledge as well.
As for J.P. Morgan, I have heard that story as well. Supposedly, he was originally slated for Ismay's B-52/54/56 suite (or was it C-62/64/66, where the Astors were [erroneously] believed to have stayed?) but, as you've said, canceled at the last moment. Ironically, as far as I remember reading, he died soon after from illness while on another boat somewhere south of where the Titanic went down. I don't rightly remember all of the details, but this aspect of the story is one I have always found interesting.
I am sorry that I cannot help regarding Milton Hershey, but there are liable to be threads on both somewhere in the archives. Every conceivable aspect on Titanic has already been mentioned here, even topics that aren't related to Titanic. I realize that it is such a vast site, but feel free to explore at your leisure. If you wish, you can do a site search for threads pertaining to these two men. I'm sure you'll find a plethora of valuable information on them.
Other resources are also available here as well. A few of them, I think, deal with J.P. Morgan and his involvement in the story.
Again, welcome, and I hope I have a chance to talk with you more in the various forums.
Take care
Mark
[Moderator's Note: This post and the one above it, originally posted in an unrelated topic have been moved to here. JDT]
Welcome to the site! We look forward to sharing with you and, hopefully, partaking in some of your valuable knowledge as well.
As for J.P. Morgan, I have heard that story as well. Supposedly, he was originally slated for Ismay's B-52/54/56 suite (or was it C-62/64/66, where the Astors were [erroneously] believed to have stayed?) but, as you've said, canceled at the last moment. Ironically, as far as I remember reading, he died soon after from illness while on another boat somewhere south of where the Titanic went down. I don't rightly remember all of the details, but this aspect of the story is one I have always found interesting.
I am sorry that I cannot help regarding Milton Hershey, but there are liable to be threads on both somewhere in the archives. Every conceivable aspect on Titanic has already been mentioned here, even topics that aren't related to Titanic. I realize that it is such a vast site, but feel free to explore at your leisure. If you wish, you can do a site search for threads pertaining to these two men. I'm sure you'll find a plethora of valuable information on them.
Other resources are also available here as well. A few of them, I think, deal with J.P. Morgan and his involvement in the story.
Again, welcome, and I hope I have a chance to talk with you more in the various forums.
Take care
Mark
[Moderator's Note: This post and the one above it, originally posted in an unrelated topic have been moved to here. JDT]
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>...and people who had tickets but didn't actually board.<<
Join the club. It's a large one where this issue is concerned. There are a few cancellations and no-shows such as J.P. Morgan, and I do mean a few. The problem here is that at the time of the disaster, the interest was on who was actually aboard and nobody much cared about those who didn't even so much as turn up on the pier.
>>At any rate, is there a resource that has all of this information compiled?<<
If it's not noted on surviving copies of the contract ticket list, the answer is "Probably not." The reason I say "probably" is because such records may have existed at one time. Unfortunately, most of White Star's corperate records ended up in a landfill somewhere when Cunard/White Star finally left the old White Star offices. If these records weren't salvaged by somebody, they're gone.
Join the club. It's a large one where this issue is concerned. There are a few cancellations and no-shows such as J.P. Morgan, and I do mean a few. The problem here is that at the time of the disaster, the interest was on who was actually aboard and nobody much cared about those who didn't even so much as turn up on the pier.
>>At any rate, is there a resource that has all of this information compiled?<<
If it's not noted on surviving copies of the contract ticket list, the answer is "Probably not." The reason I say "probably" is because such records may have existed at one time. Unfortunately, most of White Star's corperate records ended up in a landfill somewhere when Cunard/White Star finally left the old White Star offices. If these records weren't salvaged by somebody, they're gone.