Prominent Non-Passengers Morgan and Hershey

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Mike, I was kidding, playing on your "landfill" metaphor. But I was still referring to those zealots who just might go to the extent of trying it, if the WS documents were, in fact, buried in a landfill. I never put anything past people.

Still, such documents, if they could be and/or ever were found would be extremely valuable to the Titanic community.

 

[Dave Gittins]

One of the best authenticated non-starters was Guglielmo Marconi. He didn't actually have ticket, as he was to travel free as a guest of White Star. However, he was urgently needed in New York, so he went well ahead of Titanic on Lusitania.

This is set out in a letter to his wife.

According to a newspaper report, Helen Brown, Margaret Brown's daughter, had intended to sail with her mother but decided to stay in Paris and work on her studies. She probably never got as far as buying a ticket.

Early reports of the sinking placed all sorts of people on board and are highly unreliable. I have an Australian article that seems to have been written by looking up a list of famous Americans and putting them on board if they had a name vaguely like a Titanic passenger.

 

[Dave Gittins]

I've just sent an e-mail to the Hershey Museum,which allegedly has a copy of a check written by Hershey as a deposit on a cabin. He supposedly didn't travel because his wife was sick.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Hi Mark,

quote:

are you referring to his supposedly having booked passage on the Titanic and canceled at the last minute

Yep.​

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Jason,

And why is this consideration so questionable or incredulous?

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Mark,

Simply because there is no hard evidence to back it up, as I stated above. IIRC, J.P. Morgan didn't state that he was going to travel on Olympic for her maiden voyage and I don't think he traveled on any White Star Line maiden voyages, after he took control of White Star in 1902. Up until Titanic, it was Bruce Ismay (I forget how many vessels, as he was New York City's WSL agent for a time) who represented the line on maiden voyages.

Perhaps it was a rumour that started and it just circulated, but that's pure speculation on my part. I'm not dismissing it outright, but I'm skeptical.

 

[Dave Gittins]

I've just received a reply from the Hershey museum.

It includes a scan of a check for $300, drawn on the Hershey Trust Company and payable to the White Star LIne. I can't quite read the month in the date. It might be 18 December 1911.

Here's part of the e-mail.

Milton and Catherine Hershey spent a great deal of time in Europe. Much
of the time was spent seeking relief from Kitty's health problems, a
chronic and progressive illness. The illness was never fully diagnosed,
though it appears that it was progressive and neurological in nature,
with periods of remission. The Hersheys were wintering in Nice, France,
beginning in December 1911.

However, it turned out that Milton Hershey needed to return to Hershey earlier than the Titanic would permit so he cancelled his passage and
sailed on the German liner "Amerika." He arrived in New York on Saturday April 6 and returned to Hershey on the 7th. The Lancaster, PA
newspaper, "The New Era," interviewed Milton Hershey (and other prominent Lancaster residents) about the Titanic in conjunction with reporting the tragic accident. Attached is a jpeg of the cancelled check. Microfilm of "The New Era" is available at the Lancaster County
Historical Society.

(For those not familiar with the chocolate business, Hershey is a town set up by Milton Hershey to manufacture his milk chocolate)

It looks like a legend is true!

 

[Mark Baber]

Good stuff, Dave.

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

quote:

Perhaps it was a rumour that started and it just circulated, but that's pure speculation on my part. I'm not dismissing it outright, but I'm skeptical.

Thanks, Jason. Without evidence, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions about anything. Perhaps we should follow in the same kind of path that David did regarding Milton Hershey. We might find some confirmation on that either way.​

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Yes, well done, Dave.

quote:

Thanks, Jason.

You're welcome, Mark.

quote:

Perhaps we should follow in the same kind of path that David did regarding Milton Hershey. We might find some confirmation on that either way.

Possibly. I'm thinking you'd have to start with Cunard, but as mentioned above a lot of those records are gone. If there's another way of locating the evidence, then I'm all for it.​

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>If there's another way of locating the evidence, then I'm all for it.<<

Would the landfill some of these documents ended up in be a good start? (And where's a good archeaologist when you need one?)

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Well, we could call Indiana Jones, if he's around. I hear he's really good at finding things.

. . . or there's Bob Ballard, who was once said to have found a famous stubbornly elusive wreck (actually, more than one).

Seriously, though, with the passage of time, some evidence becomes more and more difficult to find.

Where's a miracle when you need one?

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

Where's a miracle when you need one?

Exactly. That's what needed in this case.​

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Where's a miracle when you need one?<<

Or a time machine so we could get our mits on all those records before they were dumped, shredded, or incinerated. Guess we'll just have to work with whatever survived.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Jason-

>>Up until Titanic, it was Bruce Ismay (I forget how many vessels, as he was New York City's WSL agent for a time) who represented the line on maiden voyages<<

Just searching on the Ellis Island Website, the name of J. Bruce Ismay comes up rather frequently...a "frequent flyer" of the time.

Also, acting as the Defense Lawyer for Jean Negulesco (LOL) would passenger lists and cabin numbers for passengers on the Titanic have been readily available in 1953, or before Walter Lord's book ? (This was in reference to the Astors being shown as coming from an inside cabin on "A" Deck in the 1953 movie.)

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Hi Robert,

quote:

Just searching on the Ellis Island Website, the name of J. Bruce Ismay comes up rather frequently...a "frequent flyer" of the time

Yes, Bruce Ismay traveled quite frequently between London and New York, as head of White Star and IMM. Mark Baber is more versed in this than I am, so he can give you an exact date, but from what I recall it was in the early 1880's that Ismay started traveling back and forth. So, it would have been about 30 years.

As far as the passengers lists and cabin numbers go, it may have been easy to obtain them, but I'm really not sure. They may have been available, but perhaps it wasn't known to a lot of people. I could be wrong though.​

 

[Mark Baber]

One of the appendices to Oldham's The Ismay Line is a listing of Bruce Ismay's North Atlantic crossings. There are 39 roundtrips; the first in 1873 and the last in 1912. (There's also one eastbound trip, the completion of a round-the-world trip which began by JBI's traveling to New Zealand on Doric I)

The only maiden voyages in this list appear to be those of Adriatic II, Megantic (return leg only), Olympic and Titanic. He was also on the MV of Ionic I to New Zealand (on charter to the New Zealand Shipping Co.) in 1883.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

There are 39 roundtrips; the first in 1873

Ah, even earlier that I thought. Thanks, Mark.​

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Hi Jason-

Thanks for the info on J. Bruce Ismay.
The list I was looking at only went back to 1893.

I suppose the comparison of any other movie with ANTR goes back to my old paraphrasing of the famous Bill Rose quote ... only I changed it to read : "For entertainment, come to "Titanic" (1997) or "Titanic" (1953); for education, go to "A Night to Remember" (1958). LOL.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

You're welcome, Robert. Glad to help.