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Raise the Titanic!

Discussion in 'Raise the Titanic' started by Nathan Lee Casteel, Mar 7, 2002.

  1. Well the job is getting easy; at least in this forum ...well to release the blades off the hub, there must be some kind of options…explosives never!

    Using some underwater-soldering device? A kind of “saw type”￾, in order to cut the heads of the bolts?

    Yours truly,
    Carlos Ferreira
  2. Joshua Gulch

    Joshua Gulch Member

    Forgive my butting in here, but I simply can't bring myself to understand why you're so intent on the removal of the propellers (or parts of them). Indeed it would make for an interesting memorial, but what's the point? The world really doesn't need more stuff from Titanic on the surface collecting dust while over-zealous bureaucrats cash in on the camera-armed tourists ready to pay anything to "see Titanic!" Your devotion is admirable but you've already conflicted yourself.

    A propeller on the surface can be called a memorial and me made to look like a memorial, but in reality it would be used as a tourist trap, no different in money-making philosophy to the mummies in cases for the viewing masses in Egypt. It's the "Titanic Mythos" that's at play here. Titanic is so big, so grand, so let's raise everything we can so people can see it! Remember that Titanic was merely another wreck amongst millions and it loses a bit of awe. Recall that greater amounts of life were lost on other wrecks that no one ever hears about and that takes a bit more away from the grandeur. Additionally, think about how small Titanic is compared to vessels that appeared in the years that followed. Titanic was destined for a watery grave, so why can't anyone accept it?

    P.S., this is just my opinion, but comparing Titanic to Auschwitz is rather improper. An accident in navigation and technology can't possibly compare to the intentional mass-extermination of a sizable chunk of the human race due to racial and religious differences. The preservation of Auschwitz is important to remind us as a people to "Never Forget" and to prevent another Holocaust from occurring. Titanic can, and possibly will, happen again, and no memorial can prevent that.

    I'm off my soapbox now.

  3. Jeanne Nagel

    Jeanne Nagel Guest

    Josh-I totally agree with you! Leave Titanic's propellers alone!!
    I was so disheartened when I found out they STOLE Lusitania's propellers. Sickening is the fact 1 of Lusi's propellers became a set of golf clubs!

  4. One other thing about Aushwitz...it's not 12,500 feet underwater so recovery is not a problem. Getting around down there with ROV's or manned submersibles large enough and well equipped enough is.

    Take a close look at those blades. They're bolted onto the hub. Does anyone have anything beefy enough to move them that can be attatched to a submersible?


    A saw or perhaps an electric cutter of some kind? Even if one could be put on that would do the job, does anyone have any idea how much electricty it would consume? And by the way, once the blade is free, where does the thing fall? On your head perhaps? That could really ruin your day.

    Michael H. Standart
  5. I must interject. Who would bankroll such a vision? He who funds such a task, would no doubt expect a return and profit on their investment. (Hense the tourist trap spoken of earlier.)
    Have you considered what sort of time and effort it would take to do such a feat? It was said at one time by George Tulloch, that it costs $5.00 per second for a dive, and that would not include any sort of cutting torch or device to get a stuck piece of Titanic to the surface. What about the treatment to preserve the propellers afterwards?
    What handfull of qualified dive operators would be willing to go and do this to Titanic? I believe at this point that it is just not possible, or feasable. Though I do not mean to personally attack you, Carlos. just question, as Josh and others have about the whole picture of this idea you have.
  6. James Smith

    James Smith Member

    Out of curiosity, are we absolutely sure that the blades would be so hard to remove? I seem to recall reading that propellers at the time generally had bronze blades bolted to zinc hubs, which caused a sort of electrolysis that weakened the bolts--which explains why ships of the period dropped propeller blades every once in a while. Can anyone back me up on this (or prove me wrong?)

    I'm not advocating any attempt to raise the propellers; I'm just curious about their structural integrity.

    Jim Smith
  7. James. the problem in this case is location. You have to go under the stern's overhang to get close enough to really do anything. That's no small trick with the submersibles that already exist.

    I recall hearing of at least one submersible that got stuck there. Fortunately temporarily. A craft large enough to carry any of the tooling needed to do the job would be in very tight quarters indeed.

    And one little mistake means you might not be coming back! Assuming they can free up the propellor blade, if they don't have it secured and under control somehow, it could make quite a flyswatter.

    Guess who the fly is.

    Michael H. Standart
  8. kevin johnson

    kevin johnson Member

    shes in two pieces to how would that work wouldn't
    you have to raise both pieces separatley
  9. Justin Taite

    Justin Taite Guest

    As far as im concerned, yes it is a cemetary in a sence. But, wern't dinosaurs dug up and put on display. Realistically, i believe that if the people who went down with the ship, certainly dont want to stay with it. Because of the ship sinking, all these people died, i for one would not want to be burried next to my killer. Or in it for that matter. Look, i dont want to have any disrespect for the people that died and their families. I just think that if we were to raise the Titanic it would open a new field for researching ship recks. Who cares about those movies with footage on the titanic under water, i say that people would have a way bigger interest in seeing it in person, being it a huge part of history. I say stop looking at it in the water and do something about it. I say evolve and let the chips fall where they may.
  10. Adam Leet

    Adam Leet Member

    Dinosaurs? How could you equate grave robbing with dinosaurs? With your logic, why not recover the bodies from the Arizona? Or the Royal Oak in Scapa Flow? Of course you cannot recover any bodies from Titanic, as there are no remains to recover.

    Raising the wreck? Again, as has been stated ad nauseum, you *cannot* raise the wreck with current technology. And by the time it comes around and has been tested (which can take years,) there will be nothing salvageable.

  11. Joshua Gulch

    Joshua Gulch Member

    Here you have a dilemma.
    Either you can continue to look at the wreck underwater (and I for one care to do so), or you can attempt to raise the thing and have nothing recognizable to look at as a result. Your choice.

    One could also argue that in watching the underwater footage that we'd like to see more than three areas (prow, telemotor, engines) over and over again.

  12. If this is as real as claimed on Ebay, take a look at this. Carlos, if you wish to have a Titanic propeller as a memorial, you can have one even if just for yourself.
    Vintage Titanic artifact by Harland & Wolff
    Item # 1095035473
  13. Justin Taite

    Justin Taite Guest

    ~Dinosaurs? How could you equate grave robbing with dinosaurs? With your logic, why not recover the bodies from the Arizona? Or the Royal Oak in Scapa Flow? Of course you cannot recover any bodies from Titanic, as there are no remains to recover.~

    Listen Adam Leet, if you had read my message properly, you would find that no where in it did i discuss raising the bodies. God! Next time, before you start cussing people, you know wat it is that you are going to cuss about. I was saying that dinosaurs are big, and they are being taken from their grave to be put on display, why not titanic, and you know wat, im glad you're not going to be responsible for bringing up the titanic, because with an attitude like that, im sure we all would have to worry about titanic taking on an early disinagration process because of the impact it took when it hit the ocean floor AGAIN!
  14. Joshua Gulch

    Joshua Gulch Member

    Excuse me, but I personally don't like the attitude you've adopted. The wording in your original post made you sound as if you wanted bodies raised. I thought that's what you were saying, and evidently Adam did, too. Adam did not cuss you out nor did he answer you with any apparent disrespect. Your attacks on him were completelly uncalled for. It's been said over and over again that Titanic is in no physical shape to be moved anywhere. In short, raising her is impossible. Meaning that you can not raise the Titanic... period. Doing so would destroy her. You make Adam sound like he's an idiot, but you're the one unwilling to accept scientific knowledge by an entire community of researchers.

    You're still new here, and I know it's not my place to tell you, but if you're going to come onto this board and assault our members, then I for one would rather not see you around.

    Thank you, and good day.

  15. Well said Joshua !

    Justin, I felt the same way you did when I first joined this board. I thought it would be a good thing to see her face to face..then, I read, I looked, I listened. I no longer feel this way and am very thankful to all the folks here that changed the way I thought. Actually, They didn't change my thoughts, I did. These good people have a love for this ship, the likes of which I have never seen. They don't always agree on everything, but they do know what they are talking about and will quickly show you proof to back up what they say. They are a wonderful and even a FUN bunch of people. Please don't be so quick to assume they are attacking you, they are not...just telling you their thoughts and explaining why they feel that way. That's what we all do here. So....I'll just stick to watching it happen in the movie with the same title as this thread. Okay...so it was a bit hokey, but that part still excites me...just a little! ;o)

  16. James Smith

    James Smith Member

    I should probably elucidate my last post--I wasn't advocating an attempt to raise the propellors, nor was I particularly concerned about the question of how to get the propellors out from under the hull. I was mainly wondering if anyone knew anything about the supposed electrolysis between the components of the propellors--the zinc/bronze reaction. Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is true or not?

    Jim Smith
  17. Dear Justin,

    Okay lets take all the dinosaurs and bodies out of the equation for a minute and think about what it is that is being proposed here.

    Any structure made of steel submersed in water will have the weight of its structure plus the water, so if you were to take an 9 ft steel constructed Titanic model and sink it in an olympic sized pool that was 132 ft deep and tried to raise it, you'd need a lot of power to do it. Even for something that small.

    Okay, now age the little sunken Titanic by 90 years of rust. As someone said above, the rust would simply fall apart and nothing would be there when you attempted to raise the little ship in the pool.

    Not sure when it was, but a while ago, someone tried to raise just one small part of the Titanic and it took quite a bit to raise that little tiny part (they called it the "Big Piece"). It was something that had broken off the main ship and was just lying about. But that "little" piece burned roped and broke cables.

    The "piece" that you are speaking of raising weighs so much that we simply do not have the technology for it at this time as I understand.

    I stand in amazement at the USS Cole simply laying on its side being carried back like it was a toy when she was attacked. But that was a very well kept ship that was not filled with water and was not rusted all through it. And it was not 2 1/2 miles below the surface. There are so many things that we can do at the surface that we can not do in space or under the sea at that depth.

    And also, I think that you need to look up common uses for words before you use them. I did not see anything inappropriate in Adam Leet's post.

  18. I have been reading all the messages on the board and they are quite informative.It is interesting to see other peoples views on this particular subject.As I mentioned on my first posting, I visited the RMS Titanic Inc artifact exhibition when I visited the USA earlier this year at Phoenix,Arizona.As I know a lot about the Titanic obviously I just went there to see the artifacts.In my opinion I believe that personal belongings should stay down with the ship as it is quite likely that they belonged to the victims,and that the pieces should stay with them in their grave.On the other hand,pieces like the telegraph,the bit of the hull and other items that are not personal should be preserved for future generations.It will educate people in the way it was such a huge maritime disaster and how such a big ship that was deemed unsinkable met her peril in the Atlantic.It will also show the structure of the ship and how the rusticles are eating away at the Titanic as we speak.There are obviously many other things that the exhibits can tell us about Titanic,which makes it so fascinating for everyone but the victims should rest in peace and what belonged to them should stay with them.

  19. Hello to everyone,

    I wasn’t able to check my mail in this last two days, so at first point I would like to thank everyone opinion about the “Titanic Memorial”.

    As everyone as the opportunity of reading the messages here in the board, I would like to address 1st to Joshua.

    As you understand, many reasons take persons to one determined place.

    In Jerusalem, many people go there only in tourism. And do you judge those people?
    You don’t allow them to go there? No.

    The Reason and the motives are in us in our soul. Never the “Titanic Memorial” is to be used as a Titanic Exhibit.

    Can you Imagine someone posing with a smile next to a memorial where in his back, are the name of 1500 people that lost their lives in the sea a cold Night in 15 April, 1912?
    No. The same reason is why in Jerusalem, nobody goes to the wall of lamentation to pose for photos.

    I can’t see why you say I conflicted myself, when all that I want is to keep the memory of this ship, Titanic, and far more important, the lives that were lost that night, so that they can never be forgotten, as you mentioned, the greater amounts of life that were already lost.

    This Memorial would use the name Titanic, to remember all this tragedies of life lost at sea.

    I’m totally against raising any single part of the Titanic not to be used in a Memorial, for the victims. It is a truly outrage the exhibits that take place, for exchange for money.

    The situation of the Titanic today, unfortunately, it is not very different from the mummies. And that is quite sad.

    The Memorial would change that. No Mythic stuff here. A Ship, human lives lost.

    Titanic and Auschwitz are human tragedies, and they should be remembering as that, the most important. If Titanic was an accident and Auschwitz with intention it is a simple fact for something, quite important that you referred.

    Never forget. If Auschwitz, in your opinion, still works for to never forget, why wouldn’t the Titanic Memorial?

    Now, I would like only to address to Jeanne, I didn’t know also that the Lusitania’s
    Propellers were used as a set of “ golf clubs” as you already must know I totally disagree with this use for them. It is total unacceptable.

    From what Michael Standart referred to us, (Thank for the technical info Michael),
    It seems quite difficult to remove the blades from the Hub…it would quite impossible if we never try. And in some years we just have a pile of rust.

    It would be wiser to get a previous fixture to the blades, and then remove the blade from the hub, from your commentary to me “ where does the blade fall? In your, head perhaps?” It seems that you’ve tried to remove the engine from your car without a proper fix before, with a disastrous ending.

    Sincerely hope that was not the case Michael.

    And responding to Colleen, who I would like to thank for the post, I’m not interested in the propeller of the Titanic for myself. It is for the Memorial, and I think that it would be quite important to be a part of the real ship, and not a replica.

    As this post starts to be very long, I want to address James, for his curiosity, about the bronze blades bolted to zinc hubs, proving that this work with a little technical research, it can be proved that it not such a difficult operation after all, it there is a will do it.

    Finally, addressing to Nicolas. I totally agree with you Nicolas, personal belongings should stay down with the ship.

    It is important that the future generations, as you mentioned, can realize how Titanic was, and as a ship, as you mentioned, deemed unsinkable, and how it became a huge maritime disaster, with the loss of human lives.

    Never forget Titanic. Because of all the maritime disaster from all times, that happened and all sink into oblivion, and why we don’t want future generations to look at us, and tell: we had now this disaster, and 100 years ago there was one similar, Titanic, and you didn’t made any plausible thing, besides words, photos, that enabled us to understand, to feel what did happen.

    We don’t want to give, by omission, such a legacy to new generations. It is our duty to give them a better world, understanding, and passing the right importance to the lessons of the past.

    Never forget Titanic. The Memorial is a proof that Mankind still can learn, with the past, for a better future.

    I’ve created an exclusive post in “General Titanica” Titanic Memorial, the title. Because this discussion “ Raise the Titanic” as nothing to, do with the Titanic Memorial.

    Hope to see your posts there.

    Yours truly,
    Carlos Ferreira
  20. Joshua Gulch

    Joshua Gulch Member

    Please don't mistake my commentation and feel that I'm attacking you. I'm merely expressing my personal beliefs to you. Thank you for not pulling a Justin and tearing into me with a vengence.

    We now return to a discussion, already in progress:

    Again, you cannot compare the Titanic wreck to Jerusalem. For instance, Titanic was not the birthplace of the world's largest religion over two millennia ago. Of course I can condone people traveling to Israel to see the Holy Lands. Now how about this:
    1) What would you think of people making religious pilgrimages to the Titanic's wreck?
    2) What would you think of people stripping parts off the buildings in Jerusalem to build a memorial? (And to whom, those who fought in the Crusades?)
    Titanic, Jerusalem, Auschwitz. Examples that bear no common lineage.

    But still, any attempt to even try to fiddle with the propellers would be foolhardy. They're in no condition to be moved without destroying them, the entire stern, and likely yourself in the process. Only to put in on display somewhere. I'm sorry, but for me I would be perfectly content paying homage to those lost that night by grazing through books and watching the footage of the ship underwater (I care). We needn't disturb a graveyard to remember those in it.