Revenue

[Timothy Brandsoy]

Thanks Captain Weeks for the paper on Ticket Revenues. We've often heard of the third class on Titanic being the cash cow. It never seemed to add up to me on an even casual basis.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

What would be interesting to see would be an in depth analysis of all the revenues earned by all the liners. Having read Captain Weeks article, I'm in agreement that it's a fine piece of research.

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Re: Revenue article. The spreadsheet uses a figure of £3 for a 3rd class ticket on the Titanic, with the added suggestion that some passengers may have paid as much as £8. Well, certainly ALL adults in 3rd class paid around £7-8, as is well documented. Presumably there were reduced rates for children, as Alma Palsson, for instance, travelled with 4 young children on a combined ticket costing £22 10s 6d. The quoted figure of £3 might well have been possible on a more traditional vessel with very basic dormitory steerage accomodation and no meals, but I very much doubt that anybody (other than perhaps a babe in arms) could have travelled for as little as £3 on the Big T.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

As it is today, fares varied widely back in 1912. For anyone interested in what was actually paid by third class, go HERE. The lowest single fare I saw there was £4, 0s, 3d paid for the ticket of Seman Betros.

For first class fares, go HERE and for second class, go HERE.

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Seman Betros was of course a child and, I think, the only one in 3rd class with a separate ticket though he was probably travelling in the company of Tannous Betros, whose adult ticket cost £7 4s 7d.

This suggests a policy of roughly half price for children, but I don't know at what age a child became an adult at the ticket office - quite young, if in line with Lightoller's judgement at the lifeboats!

 

[Bob Godfrey]

I've now checked the listings on this site (see Michael's links above) and I see that male passengers were elevated from 'Master' to the adult status of 'Mr' at the age of 14. The ticket price presumably increased in accordance.

And this does indeed reflect Lightoller's reluctance to allow a 14-year old boy into a lifeboat.

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hi Bob,

According to Titanic's Certificates of Clearance an infant was aged under 1, a child 1 to under 12. Anyone aged 12 and upwards was an adult.

The Contract Ticket List seems to reflect this. - I guess your Master to Mr refers to Jack Ryerson. He was counted as an adult. The same with Miss Carter.

I hope that helps,
Lester

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Thanks for clarifying the official policy, Lester. My assumption was based on finding several thirteen year old 'masters' in the lists, but nobody older.

That rather archaic form of address was still in common use here in Britain in the '50s, by the way, when I was a kid. I remember how good it felt when I finally started getting mail addressed to Mr Godfrey!

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hi Bob,

Glad to have been able to help.

I think 3rd Class children paid a half fare. 2nd Class I will need to check on. 1st Class I recall reading something along the lines of 2 children aged under 10 one full fare; infants 2 pounds [or $10 US]; but I will check on all of that for you. Please e-mail me privately in a few days and I will hopefully have the answers for you.

Lester

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Thanks, Lester. Will do. In the meantime, here's a thought: The age distinctions in the Certiicate of Clearance were the basis of a formula used to ensure that the vessel 'does not carry a greater number of passengers than in the proportionate of one statute adult to every five superficial feet of space clear for exercise on deck'. The formula decreed that on the fateful voyage the 710 men. women and children carried in steerage amounted to 666 (and one half) statute adults. 666? My God, isn't that the Number of the Great Beast? A sure portent of disaster - another Titanic myth is born.

On an only slightly more serious note, I reckon that a regulation based on the premise that young children introduced to the exciting new environment of an ocean liner would take up LESS space on deck was surely drawn up by a committee of gentleman who had spent their own childhoods bound hand and foot.

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hi Bob,

1st Class: Infants under 12 months $10 US [2 pounds Stirling]; children - two children each under ten years, One Full Fare. Meals for Children are served in the Saloon at special hours, before the other passengers. Children are not entitled to seats at the regular sittings in the Saloon unless a full fare is paid.

2nd Class: Child one year and under 12, half fare each. Infants under 12 months $7.50 each. The right is reserved to charge full fare for one child occupying a whole berth, one fare being charged for two children under 12 occupying one berth. No westbound tickets issued for children under 16 unless accompanied by or coming to join parent or parents.

I have no rates for 3rd Class, but looking at the fares paid it would appear that for 3rd Class that children were charged a half fare; with a minimum charge for Infants.

With regard to the formula, infants were not taken into account. Cabin Passengers at Southampton are listed as 401 adults, 22 children and 4 infants = 427; equal to Adults computed by Part III M.S. Act 1984 [which I do not have] 412. That is 401+11. - The same for Steerage. 439 adults, 50 children and 6 infants = 495; equal to 464. That is 439+25. Overall for 3rd Class I have 709 passengers, of whom 630 were adults and 79 children/infants. A quick breakdown gives me 73 children and 6 infants = 666.5. - The Certificates of Clearance [which you have used for your figures] give 495+102+113 [for Queenstown]; of whom 632 were adults, 69, children and 9 infants; which also = 666.5. - 464+92+110.5. Does that extra half effect your 666 Great Beast Number?

I hope this helps,
Lester

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Many thanks, Lester, I now have a fairly clear picture of the affects of the age variable on ticket prices.

I'm now trying to clarify the effects of other variables. I'm looking at 2nd class at the moment, and one puzzle is why some adults travelling alone on single tickets were sharing cabins with strangers also travelling solo who paid different prices. Possibly the ticket prices included commissions which varied between different agents. Or were some people paying for optional extras? Any ideas?

Let's assume, by the way, that the Great Beast dealt only in integers - we don't want to spoil a good myth!

Bob

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hi Bob,

I suspect that either the cabins were assigned as passengers boarded or that a central authority perhaps in London placed passengers in particular cabins. Rooms that come to mind are F-33 and E-101. - The ticket numbers suggest different ticket agents. - I also think it likely that some [probably those paying only 10 pounds 10s] were booked for other ships. The advertised 2nd Class fare was 13 pounds. - 13 pounds 10s for the outside rooms on D-deck.

Hope that helps,
Lester

 

[Bob Godfrey]

Hallo, Lester

I'm sure you're right about the £10.10s relating to transfers from other ships - that fits at least two of the occupants of the cabins mentioned, with transfers from the Oceanic and Amerika.

I believe also that the 'standard' fare for 2nd class passengers boarding at Queenstown and requiring one night less at sea was £12.7s. Not much of a reduction considering that passengers who travelled the short run from Southampton to Queenstown were charged £4.

Do you think, by the way, that the Troutt/Keane/Webber cabin really was E-101? Winnie Troutt's description (porthole at the end of a narrow passage) could only be that of a 'bibby' cabin, which would rule out 101.

I do apologise if I'm raising old issues here, but I'm new to this Aladdin's cave and it's taking a long time to go through the archives of riches!

Regards,
Bob

 

[Lester Mitcham]

Hi Bob,

I note your point about the Queenstown fare and can only say that for both 1st and 2nd Class the Fare Rate booklets say from Southampton, Cherbourg and Queenstown.

Re Winnie. We both have the same understanding. When she spoke [personally] of throwing Nora's corset down the passageway towards the porthole there was no mention of opening a stateroom door. - Could it be that Winnie had berth one in room 100?

Regards,
Lester