RMS Mauretania in Dazzle - HMS Tuber Rose

[Jim Baumann]

Hello all!

new member--first posting!
My name is Jim Baumann-resident in Southampton UK
my primary interest is ship modelling in small scales, here is a link to my modelboat web page hosted by Modelwarships.com
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/users/jim-baumann/jb-index.html

Th reason for my posting is that I am seeking more information/photos of the Mauretania in dazzle camouflage.

I have a number of photos -but always need more!

I started a thread on MW.com--and got some worthwhile replies with photos!-which can be viewed here:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13102

Sooooo, if anyone has a URL or indeed pics/photos they would consider sharing so that I may complete the model as accurately as is feasible...

I would be most grateful!

I can be reached via jbys1@tiscali.co.uk

Thank you all in advance--I have enjoyed reading the board for a while now...!

Kind regards

Jim Baumann

 

[Eric Longo]

Dear Mr. Baumann,

Welcome! One source for dazzle camouflage images is the Ocean Liner Museum exhibit catalog Dazzle and Drab: Ocean Liners at War (2001) by John Maxtone-Graham. There are several photographs of Mauretania in her Wilkinson-inspired dazzle camouflage in that volume, including a photocard from my collection. Mauretania, port broadside, with a destroyer and an airship photographed off Queenstown. This private card, evocative as it is, was taken too far away to be of use for your purposes - but I recall there are a few others in that catalog that ought to provide some additional information. That is the only unique photograph I have of her in full dazzle - of the 10 WW1 photographs/photocards I have, 3 total are completed dazzle camoflauge (2 others show her being painted, possibly into dazzle, at Halifax and at Gareloch) and I imagine you have seen the other 2 (RPPC starboard broadside detail "Placing two million troops overseas" by N. Moser of N.Y. and the "common" 1920's RPPC starboard broadside from the IWM). The Southstreet Seaport Museum in N.Y. currently sells copies of the Maxtone-Graham volume for $12.95 at the Museum website. There is also a website compiled by Roy Behrens which has a lot of information - and his book False Colors: Art, Design and Modern Camouflage (2002 ISBN-0971324409).

Do you have any information about when she was painted in dazzle first, and where? Have you any idea if or how many times she was painted black and back to dazzle again after her hospital service ended/during the time she was laid up? Do you have any information about a single 12-pound gun mounted on her bow directly in front of the foremast? This was mentioned recently but I am only aware of the 4 bow guns fitted 2 port and 2 starboard. Thanks for any help!

Best,
Eric Longo

R.M.S. Mauretania: The Centennial of her Launch

R.M.S. Mauretania: Farewell to the Tyne

 

[Jim Baumann]

Thank you for your prompt response!

I have the catalogue... along with a number of books as well as number of interesting images sent to me by chums online...

On the question of the guns I can only add that she carried two additional mounts aft-interestingly on the plans in the volume -Mauretania-reprint's from Engineering- Mark D Warren--these show the mounts on the aft deck also.

Thank you

JIM B

 

[Peter Newall]

Good morning Jim,
You can find all the information and photos of all her dazzle guises in my new book: MAURETANIA: TRIUMPH AND RESURRECTION which is on sale at the Southampton Maritime Museum or from Mainmast Books at:http://www.nauticalbooks.co.uk/peternewall/index.asp

Best wishes from Dorset,
Peter
PS the book also has a 4-page cutaway of the ship

 

[Eric Longo]

Dear Mr. Newall,

Can you shed any light at all on the 12-pound bow gun that you state in your new book was mounted in late November 1916, just in forward of the foremast? I believe you have mistakenly identified her boom crutch as the gun mount itself in the Halifax photo, but was there indeed a single 12-pound gun mounted along the centerline in addition to the four 6-inch B.L. guns that are seen along the port and starboard bow rails and aft of the foremast in period photographs? I am unaware of a single 12-pound bow gun and am seeking further confirmation of this - it does not show in the photographs I have of her armed although the four others are visible, and there does not appear to be a platform or even space to accommodate it where you have placed it along the center line near the foremast. Many thanks in advance for any details or references regarding this bow gun.

Best and congrats again,
Eric Longo

 

[Jim Baumann]

Peter Newall wrote:

>>You can find all the information and photos of all her dazzle guises in my new book: MAURETANIA: TRIUMPH AND RESURRECTION ...<<

Aha--that will be the book I bought on spec off e-bay last night..--good to know I did the right thing once again!

Jim Baumann

 

[Jim Baumann]

OK knowledgable gents...!

thank you very much for your help so far--

Soooo.... any one wish to speculate on the colour of the inside of the cowl vents--there are rather a lot of them--so I feel it is essential to get it either right or at least inoffensive!

My hunch--is that they would have been a darkblue/grey

They seem a different shade/tone from the other colours in the photos in my view... any other thoughts theretoo?

JIM Baumann

 

[Eric Longo]

Dear Jim,

You are quite welcome - scans in your mailbox
Re the inside of the cowl vents - this may help a little anyway. I do not have my copy of the Drab catalog handy but what color are they on the cover? I recall discussing this cover and the colors used with the gentleman who designed it and he was quite certain he had accurately researched all the proper colors. Obviously, I can not guarantee the accuracy of the cover image, but it might help to confirm your hunch one way or the other. Other than that, I'd not know offhand.

Best,
Eric Longo

 

[Jim Baumann]

Received the book today--a worthwhile investment and a useful tome of information.

...back in the early 1990's I regularly stayed at the Boathouse in Poole--I was involved with the Redwing sailboat events hosted from there-- a magnificent house and a treasure trove of Mauretaniara!!

Regards

JIM BAUMANN--back to building the model now!

 

[Eric Longo]

Dear Jim,

I took a look at the Dazzle & Drab cover as you asked - the color inside the ventilators is a medium neutral gray. I'll be sending those scans by weeks end.

Best,
Eric

 

[Eric Longo]

Dear Jim,

Regarding the bow guns/boom crutch discussion - I have looked at every photograph I have in my collection of her armed, including the images I have of her laid up at Gareloch in 1916/1917 in gray and being repainted (she appears to be armed, but with the 6-inch guns). I also looked over every image I could find in the books we mentioned, and all show the four expected 6-inch B.L. guns fore and aft of the foremast - no single 12-pound gun in front of the foremast along the centerline - just the boom crutch. On page 47 of Cunard: A Photographic History by J. McCutcheon, there is a starboard detail of her in dazzle and armed that shows both the 6-inch guns along the starboard rail and the boom crutch. On page 45 there is a color painting that also shows this same arrangement. On page 22 of Dazzle and Drab: Ocean Liners at War by the OLM with text by John Maxtone-Graham there is another starboard photograph - this more of a broadside - that again shows the 6-inch guns and nothing else. In some of these photographs it could appear, at a quick glance, that the forward 6-inch gun is in front of the foremast, but as you know it is actually near the railing well away from the centerline. In many of these photographs the boom crutch can be seen peeking up just behind the 6-inch guns. One thing I did find when going through my onboard passenger candids is a photocard labeled “steerage” taken in 1911 that shows the boom crutch quite close from behind — I have outlined it in orange in the scan linked below. Lacking any further input or information I cannot substantiate the single 12-pound gun mounted in the location described in Mr. Newall’s book. What was identified as the 12-pound gun mount in the Halifax photograph on page is clearly the boom crutch, but it seems there was no 12-pound gun in any event. Have you run into any further information on this, Jim?

Boom Crutch aboard Mauretania 1911

Best,
Eric

 

[Jim Baumann]

Hi guys

a progress update..--the model is making good progress

Its 'afloat', weathered and now getting a myriad small details that I am gleaning off the photos I have been sent-from all around the world from all my virtual and physical modelchums--thank you

The tedium of scratchbuilding 40 plus collapsible boats, davits, hollowing out all those cowls....making all those tiny cable reels on the uper railings....

Its not hard--there is just so much of it and of the same on a liner!!!!

Still a couple of mysteries though...

maybe soemone knows the answer(s)....

In the stern view


http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=best/b209;thumbs=1

can be seen some poles sticking up from the aft structure-aft of the additional davits....

anyone hazard a guess what they may be for?

Also... on the bridge roof there is an additional small structure--I have affixed it now--but what was it for? There was a small rangefinder fro the 2 x 6 in guns on the fordeck--where would the aft rangefinder for the 2 x 6 in guns on the aft deck have been..?--the gun locations are not a problem--just the aft rangefinder location

Thansk for your considerations

JIM B Wave
_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/users/jim-baumann/jb-index.html

 

[Jim Baumann]

Hi gentlemen!

Mauretania in dazzle is whizzing along now....

http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13102

however I have drawn a blank on any usable photos of the water tanks and the pipework around the base of the fwd funnel

I have scoured all the on-line pics I could find, gone thru all my liner books and Mauretania monographs , plans and drawings etc

I have found one usable photo where the pipework is discernible--but its not enough for me to be happy ( yet!!)

Does anyone out there have any photos they could/would share?

Thanks in advance gentlemen!

Jim Baumann

 

[Eric Longo]

Dear Jim,

I will have a look - check the huge scans I sent you and I will peek through what I have.
Best,
Eric

 

[Eric Longo]

Hi All,

Jim Baumann has finished the 1/400 scale model of the Mauretania armed and in her dazzle scheme which started this thread, and it is very impressive indeed. To give an idea, there are actually about 2,000 hand painted soldiers aboard! It can be seen at this modelling site under "What's New" with the title "Atlantic Greyhound R.M.S. Mauretania 1907-1935". His other models, including the liners France, QE and QE2, can be seen here. His Internet Server is being cranky, so I post this - Jim also asked me to mention that he can be reached at jbys1@tiscali.co.uk.
Be sure to see the photographs at the end of the article of the finished model against a backdrop - some look real! Congratulations to Jim on a very well made model!

Best,
Eric

R.M.S. Mauretania: Farewell to the Tyne

R.M.S. Mauretania: The Centennial of her Launch

 

[Peter Newall]

For those interested, Mauretania was given dazzle camouflage in 1915. This is according to Sir James Bisset in his excellent book Commodore. I guess he should have known this fact as he served aboard Mauretania during her troop voyage to Mudros in August 1915.
Peter

[Moderator's Note: This message, originally a separate thread, has been moved to this pre-existing thread addressing the same subject. MAB]

 

[Eric Longo]

I just found this thread.

For the sake of accuracy Peter, no, she wasn't, and I have supplied more than ample detailed and dated evidence demonstrating the contrary including the words of the man who designed the scheme in the first place - in the thread dealing with this.
However, as I am always open to learning, I am still waiting for anything at all besides Bisset's memories and some ghostwritten notions written a half-century later to substantiate your lone claim.
I believe you stated you contacted the same sources I did - the United States Navy, the Office of Naval Intelligence, The National Archives, the Imperial War Museum and the Signal Corps. The date of 1918 for the application of the first dazzle scheme is also supported by The Tyne and Wear Archives, The Merseyside Maritime Museum, authors, researchers, extremely knowledgeable model makers at TRMA and so on. Why may I ask did you get such very different results?
Once I was able to read Wilkinson's own words everything fell right into place in the timeline as I had been constructing it right here on ET.
I would be curious to know what you uncovered, as I and others found your written description of her dazzle chronology confusing - reversed, misidentified, uncredited and multiple photographs of the same scheme dated to different years aside.

Eric Longo

This is discussion of the facts alone - you behavior in the last "conversation" brought the moderators down on you due to your personal attacks (which were unsubstantiated and actually untrue which surprised me). Please respect the wishes of the moderators should you decide to respond.