Roy Mengot's bottom up breakup theory


Steven Hall

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Aug 8, 2001
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Will, the chances of the bow popping back up is extremely remote indeed.
If you do a rough thumbnail calculation, the bow was well below the water. For it to pop back up (that far !) makes it totally impossible given what we understand of the breakup.
 

Steven Hall

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It might have been a berg............

121503.jpg
 

Will C. White

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Apr 18, 2007
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Note I said possible, not probable-I don't think myself that it did come up-I was responding to Michael Cundiff. I'd be more inclined to believe it was water swirl as some trapped air was forced out from somewhere up forward-maybe under one of the cargo hatches?
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>In theory, it would be possible for the bow to momentarily reappear<<

I believe we may be overthinking this one. Remember, the whole thing about the bow popping up in the first place was in the Skidmore drawing. Jack Theyer never actually said that. At least not in his written account or in any sworn statement.

Cut it any way you like, it's just not there.

Keep in mind that some aspects of the drawings are decidedly fanciful, the portrayal of the way the bow ran up onto the berg for example...which Jack Theyer was in no position to witness. Also, all that extra mass in the nearlt flooded solid bow section would take a lot of energy to overcome all that inertia.
 
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What is also interesting, if you note many of the, *actual* film footage of WW11 vessel sinkings, however a brief time had elapsed upon the initial center hull strike from the *steel* fish...the forepeak and abaft sections are uprighted. It is interesting that modern day forensics can attribute a direct result of a particular incident via mathematical certainties...as Andrews had also calculated 14 April '12. And, as an eyewitness account stands...so many vary in their first hand observation of such an incident.

I often reflect on the passing of Jack Thayer, and ponder on what he may have thought, had he
still been alive and coherant during Dr. Ballard's observing that, yes the bow and stern had parted...just as Thayer had witnessed.

Michael Cundiff
NV, USA
 
Feb 24, 2004
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Wouldn't both Lightoller and Col. Gracie (for instance) have been in a very iffy position - even more iffy than the one they were actually in - if the bow had suddenly decided to shoot upward?

Roy
 

Paul Lee

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Aug 11, 2003
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Also, bear in mind that the occupants of boat B were very close to the bow. The Skidmore sketch shows the Titanic in a portside profile, diferent to what Thayer would have seen.
 

steven evans

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Dec 12, 2007
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when people say the forecastle deck reappeared when jack Thayer did the sketches do you think it was the grand staircase that he saw because during the scene when they destroyed the dome the grand staircase ripped from its foundation that might have been what he saw, because the wreck today there is no grand staircase.
 
Movie sets are built different than staircases on a ship. One is made to last. The other is meant to serve a purpose and be dismantled. One is meant to last for years and the money and work is put into it. The other is meant to last for a few days and then be destroyed.

Steven, you argument was put forth in a documentary. It's not new.

However, there is the possibility that the grand staircase was coughed out as the ship descended or when it hit bottom.

I'd suggest looking to books rather than movies. Movies are entertainment, not historical documents.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>when people say the forecastle deck reappeared when jack Thayer did the sketches <<

Actually, if you want to pick nits, it was a man by the name of Skidmore who did the sketches, supposedly based on Jack Theyer's input.

>>do you think it was the grand staircase that he saw because during the scene when they destroyed the dome the grand staircase ripped from its foundation that might have been what he saw,<<

See Jermey's reply on this as it's bang on the money. There is a vast difference between a movie set which is a temporary construct not meant to last and a ship along with it's structure which is designed to be durable enough to last from 25 to 35 years.

While it's not impossible for the staircase to have been ejected, the hydrodynamic forces at work were extremely violent. If the staircase went anywhere, it went there in pieces.
 
Jun 12, 2004
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quote:

a ship along with it's structure which is designed to be durable enough to last from 25 to 35 years.

Mike-

(side whisper): Provided she doesn't sink before that time is up. Even Titanic's durability held up just so long before it gave way. Nothing is that durable.

I get your point, though.​
 

steven evans

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Michael H. Standart
tell me where is the grand staircase because it could not go into thin air, if thayer saw an object what he thought was the forecastle deck it is possible he saw huge pieces of the grand staircase because it would have been impossible for the forecastle deck to pop up or unless the titanic did break on a shallow angle but even that it is pushing the possibilities the forecastle deck would pop up when the water had filled all the water tight compartments where the bow was.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>tell me where is the grand staircase because it could not go into thin air,<<

Everywhere, in itty bitty pieces.

>>if thayer saw an object what he thought was the forecastle deck...<<

Once again, you need to study the actual history and be mindful of what's being discussed in the posts above. Jack Theyer NEVER said that he saw the bow section pop up as portrayed in the drawings penned by Mr. Skidmore.

Never.

Not in sworn testimony, not in his book, and not in any sworn statements, affidavits or accounts. The sketch is the interpolation of the artist.

>>it is possible he saw huge pieces of the grand staircase <<

Yes, it's possible. Possible however is not even remotely the same thing as probable. Regardless of that, anything that came out would have gone the way of any wooden material ejected from the wreck. Any which was not picked up at sea or washed up as flotsum and jetsum on some distant beach would have decomposed into lunch for any marine denezins which find wood to be a tasty snack.
 
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Matt Pereira

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Michael, I havent been around lately but if I was I would have mentioned that I remember hearing that Thayer told Skidmore that after the break the bow floated for a moment before going down and the stern leveled off. I feel that Skidmore was most likely confused and didnt understand that it was the aft end of the bow that was floating for a moment after the break and thought the bow popped back up from the water, good evidence that you should never make assumptions.

Steven, there were and are pictures of the iron balustrauds (not sure on spelling) that was part of the wrought iron frame work used in the two grand staircases found and pictured by Ballard back in 1985/86. Is belived to be from the aft Grand Staircase but still proves that wood even in fragments would have been consumed or roted such as Michael has stated. I would also stress that most of the wreckage picked up was done so from what I remember weeks after the sinking, not like the tour guides at the Astor mansion proclaimed that the Carpathia picked up John Astor`s body the night of the sinking along with wreckage such as deck chairs and the famous wood paneling from the aft Grand Staircase 1st class area of the ship.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>I would have mentioned that I remember hearing that Thayer told Skidmore that after the break the bow floated for a moment before going down and the stern leveled off.<<

I'm curious as to the source for that. Jack never mentions saying this in the short book/article he wrote.
 
M

Matt Pereira

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I dont remember where I read it either but I remember reading it. I havent read the book that Thayer wrote that is next on my book list but I do know it wasnt one of Charles Pellegrino`s books. It might have been in the book Titanic and Illustrated History I read as a kid I know that had the Skidmore drawing of the sinking.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>It might have been in the book Titanic and Illustrated History<<

I may have missed it but I never saw it there. I'd be cautious with this one. Secondary sources, even from the best researchers, have a tendency to repeat some of the same mistakes.
 

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