Seagoing Authentic Titanic Replica with Escort Ship?

[Scott Mills]

Second class on Titanic was just as good as first class on smaller ships! This is completely true; however, by modern standards? Many second class cabins involved passengers sharing rooms with strangers and none of the second class cabins had en suite bathing and toilet facilities.

In fact, as I alluded to in other posts, most of the first class cabins did not have en suite bathing and toilet facilities.

And, of course, nobody at all is going to want to ride in third or second class and not be allowed to use the facilities of the other classes.

Also, you are correct. The real money makers on these ships--at least prior to around 1918--was third class passengers. This is especially the case on West Bound voyages.

 

[Steven Christian]

I read somewhere that that First & Second class were almost pure profit for Olympic. Titanic of course never had the chance to really make money for White Star. In a way there were really four classes because the parlour suites were a lot better than a standard First class berth. Plus I remember reading that after the Immigration Act of 1924 steerage traffic dropped off quite considerably.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

Also, you are correct. The real money makers on these ships--at least prior to around 1918--was third class passengers. This is especially the case on West Bound voyages.

Actually the real money makers were 1st class passengers not 3d class. A 1st class passenger (even 2nd class) paid much more for his cabin than 3rd class.
Mark Chirnside published a paper about it, would need to look for the link.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

I've been following this topic (as I on do on some of the other topics).
I have come to the conclusion that while it looked linteresting, it is simply impossible, for all the reasons stated previously.

IMHO your best bets today woiuld be the Queen Mary Hotel for lodging and the Titanic Museum for history.
But it will cost you.
$244 for a room at the Queen Mary Hotel
$28.50 for admission to the Titanic Mudeum

 

[Harland Duzen]

Maybe a better option would be as suggested above, build the Titanic in dry-dock like the Cutty Sark but only build selected areas and cabins like the Virtual Sailor model by Kyle Hudak that features corridors and 1st class spaces.

That allows people to spend the night, tour the ship and allow expansion of more areas to be built if wanted in the future.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Another legal obstacle would be:

She could not be manned by a British crew because of modern laws regarding equal opportunities and I think a majority 'white British' crew might be considered discrimination against other applicants seeking a job on the liner. There is also the insurance to consider. Who would be willing to insure a ship that is following safety standards that are 106 years out of date? e.g. There would be no wheelchair access or disabled toilet facilities which would mean a number of passengers would feel discriminated against as well as the workers.

I think many people hope that nobody will rebuild the ship because it means she will no longer be a dream and her stark reality will be made public. She may have looked nice in several pictures, but her interior decor was by no means the very best because French and German ships were much more grand and luxurious when it came to interior design. However they never sank under terrible circumstances, so they are largely forgotten.

Sailing on a German liner in 1912.

There are also compensation claims to consider as well. The passengers may ask for their money back and the chances of them being bored or wishing to cancel the rest of their journey could be high. There were even complaints on the real Titanic.

Survivor Mrs Shelley submitted an affidavit to the US Inquiry regarding her complaints about 2nd class on the Titanic:

"....Taken to a small cabin many decks down in the ship, which was so small that it could only be called a cell. It was impossible to open a regulation steamer trunk in said cabin. It was impossible for a third person to enter said cabin unless both occupants first of all crawled into their bunks.......the cabin was entirely too small for two women, and that two men could not hardly fit in; that it was impossible for myself or the steward to enter the cabin and to wait upon the occupants unless both of them first climbed into their berths. The purser then told me that he would have to act at once, or the company would get into trouble." She was allocated a better room on the ship. "That this cabin, though large and roomy, was not furnished in the comfortable manner as the same accommodation procured on the Cunard and other lines; that it looked in a half-finished condition; that this room was just as cold as the cell from which we had just been removed, and on asking the steward to have the heat turned on, he answered that it was impossible, as the heating system for the second-class cabins refused to work. That of all the second-class cabins, only three - the three first cabins to be reached by the heat - had any heat at all, and that the heat was so intense there that the occupants had complained to the purser, who had ordered the heat shut off entirely; consequently the rooms were like ice houses all of the voyage."

The repair men on the replica would need to be trained to deal with 1912 appliances, wiring, and plumping. A giant workforce of tradesmen would also need to be trained to build all of her furnishings which would need to be custom made and boiler makers and engineers would need to build factories to create a replica of her engines. Not to mention spares, as she would need to be maintained regularly and come into dry dock for inspections and repairs using 1912 equipment and tools to complete the repairs.

If all of the above was made public then I think nobody would be willing to invest their money in the project without some guarantee that she could make a profit within her first year of service.


.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Actually the real money makers were 1st class passengers not 3d class. A 1st class passenger (even 2nd class) paid much more for his cabin than 3rd class.
Mark Chirnside published a paper about it, would need to look for the link.

It seems the profit on steerage was only if filled with 1500 to 2000 persons ? There were only 709 on Titanic.
Of course I believe the total onboard was only about 50% of those available.

Evidently the makers of "Titanic" (1953) were not aware of this.:
When the leading character (Richard Ward Sturges-(Clifton Webb) tries to book passage at Cherbourg , he is told "Titanic has been sold out for months."
I don't think it would have made much difference in the plot of the movie if he had bought a First Class ticket.
Of course, just another error, The rave reviews seem to indicate the general public liked the movie, but there seems to be a difference of opinion on this website. LOL

 

[Steven Christian]

It seems the profit on steerage was only if filled with 1500 to 2000 persons ? There were only 709 on Titanic.
Of course I believe the total onboard was only about 50% of those available.

Evidently the makers of "Titanic" (1953) were not aware of this.:
When the leading character (Richard Ward Sturges-(Clifton Webb) tries to book passage at Cherbourg , he is told "Titanic has been sold out for months."
I don't think it would have made much difference in the plot of the movie if he had bought a First Class ticket.
Of course, just another error, The rave reviews seem to indicate the general public liked the movie, but there seems to be a difference of opinion on this website. LOL

I liked the movie. It was entertaining. But just like Cameron's film Titanic was a back drop for a fictional story. Plus I always liked Barbra Stanwyck. If you watch her movies from the 30's and 40's she was quite the sharp tongued looker. "Sassy but Classy" as they used to say.

 

[MichaelMacleod]

Hello, I made the original post and really appreciate the detailed and well thought out responses on here.

I really do very much doubt something like a precise replica would ever be attempted for numerous safety and financial reasons all included in this thread. If there was some eccentric billionaire out there though I think the task of actually constructing a fourth Olympic Liner would be entirely doable. There's currently 225,000 tonne cruise ships being launched so a 45,000 tonne ocean liner is in the scope of a midsize build. The real expense I imagine would be going for that authenticity, rediscovering riveting techniques, cast molding the engine blocks, all that guild wood carving, etc. If someone had enough money and determination though building an exact replica would not be overly difficult. Getting it onto the ocean with people onboard it would be entirely another matter though.

A lot of responses mentioned that people would be put off by a lack of amenities, cabin size, air conditioning, no hot tub etc. While I completely understand that reasoning I do feel it misses the spirit of a Titanic replica somewhat, if someone wanted to travel in the most luxurious ship possible with all the modern day perks I imagine something like the Queen Mary 2 would be their immediate go to, taking a voyage on her is absolutely something on my bucket list. This Titanic replica however would be marketed towards the adventurous, people with a deep interest in history and obviously primarily those with a deep interest in anything Titanic. Several people mentioned the concept of a floating museum and that is precisely what this would be. There's some amazing photos linked above of some German liner interiors. This whole theoretical venture would be geared for people who want to experience what life was really like onboard a liner of that era. Given how ingrained Titanic is in popular culture, the booming world population and the steady rise of the middle class I genuinely think there could be a profit made in an all out Titanic replica, it would be a completely unique experience.

It was also mentioned a couple of times either fitting out another ship with an Edwardian style interior or making the Titanic a static museum on land, I thought the Truman Show fake voyage was a great idea, it reminded me a ton of the Rick and Morty Titanic episode, minus the sinking simulation aspect. I guess the Chinese Titanic pretty much hits the static attraction nail right on the head although I wish the Titanic Quarter in Belfast had done it first right on the spot where the Olympic class were first built.

I've never been to the Titanic Museum in Missouri but if I ever find myself in that part of the world I'll be sure to look out for it. I was able to stay on the Queen Mary in Long Beach though and spent about four days exploring every bit of her I could access. While the ship has had many changes such as a restaurant now cutting into the promenade I think overall the operators have done a good job of maintaining such a huge ship in as much as possible a historical state. I very much wish I had had the chance to be on a ship like that while she was still on the ocean.

There's been some great comments to on the legal side of things. No port allowing her in is totally valid. Even if you could get Titanic Replica passengers to sign some sort of 'Assumption of risk, release and waiver of liability' ports wouldn't let a 1910's technology liner anywhere near their docks. If she crashed into the dock due to a lack of tugs, azipods, thrusters, etc the onus would probably be as much on the port authorities as it would the Replicas operators. A step around this might be to use the safety escort ship to ferry the passengers to a from the port, much in the way the original Titanic docked outside Cherbourg.

For workers health and safety this is another excellent point. This whole premise is going to the utter extreme of make the replica 100% authentic including a crew stoking the furnaces, etc. This might be an area where a bit of give is necessary such as giving the stokers re-breathers. I don't know if something along the lines of hazard pay would be enough to cover operating on this or would international law ban entirely working on what is effectively a floating death trap with only a nearby ship for support. Another comment mentioned crew diversity, looking at some figures of the original 908 crew 724 of them were from Southampton it would be pretty dubious to hire a predominately white English crew. There's the moral discriminatory aspect not to mention the practical difficulty in finding skilled workers within a single demographic willing to take the job with its unique circumstances. This is an area in my opinion where authenticity again would need to give way to practically and a spirit of inclusiveness.

A last point, I know this is getting long, was disabled passengers. Its a really amazing point and I'm glad Aaron 2016 brought it up. I'm not sure about this, this entire thread is legally way out on a limb as it is. This might again be a situation where authenticity and accuracy bend a little and a couple of cabins are replaced with disabled bathrooms and facilities. In terms of getting around the ship I imagine even in 1912 someone in a wheelchair would have been able to explore much of the ship owing to the continuous flow of rooms and the elevators from A to E deck. If they wished to visit the engine room or boilers though something like that might require assistance from some crew specifically trained to do so in a respectful way.

Anyway I've rambled enough. A warts and all Titanic replica seems like a stretch but really looking forward to the Honor and Glory game being finished, I've always wanted to be able to explore the Titanic and that's probably going to be the best way to do so for a long time yet.

 

[Dave Gittins]

Nobody has mentioned the stationary Titanic replica which is well on the way in China. This seems to be mixture of replica and modern additions. For instance, it will have a ballroom. It's going to have a replica engine. It's not clear how it will all end. Some Chinese are asking why it's being built at all, given China's very limited connection with the ship. Chinese commentators don't seem to be aware of the eight Chinese passengers. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

 

[Steven Christian]

Hello, I made the original post and really appreciate the detailed and well thought out responses on here.

I really do very much doubt something like a precise replica would ever be attempted for numerous safety and financial reasons all included in this thread. If there was some eccentric billionaire out there though I think the task of actually constructing a fourth Olympic Liner would be entirely doable. There's currently 225,000 tonne cruise ships being launched so a 45,000 tonne ocean liner is in the scope of a midsize build. The real expense I imagine would be going for that authenticity, rediscovering riveting techniques, cast molding the engine blocks, all that guild wood carving, etc. If someone had enough money and determination though building an exact replica would not be overly difficult. Getting it onto the ocean with people onboard it would be entirely another matter though.

A lot of responses mentioned that people would be put off by a lack of amenities, cabin size, air conditioning, no hot tub etc. While I completely understand that reasoning I do feel it misses the spirit of a Titanic replica somewhat, if someone wanted to travel in the most luxurious ship possible with all the modern day perks I imagine something like the Queen Mary 2 would be their immediate go to, taking a voyage on her is absolutely something on my bucket list. This Titanic replica however would be marketed towards the adventurous, people with a deep interest in history and obviously primarily those with a deep interest in anything Titanic. Several people mentioned the concept of a floating museum and that is precisely what this would be. There's some amazing photos linked above of some German liner interiors. This whole theoretical venture would be geared for people who want to experience what life was really like onboard a liner of that era. Given how ingrained Titanic is in popular culture, the booming world population and the steady rise of the middle class I genuinely think there could be a profit made in an all out Titanic replica, it would be a completely unique experience.

It was also mentioned a couple of times either fitting out another ship with an Edwardian style interior or making the Titanic a static museum on land, I thought the Truman Show fake voyage was a great idea, it reminded me a ton of the Rick and Morty Titanic episode, minus the sinking simulation aspect. I guess the Chinese Titanic pretty much hits the static attraction nail right on the head although I wish the Titanic Quarter in Belfast had done it first right on the spot where the Olympic class were first built.

I've never been to the Titanic Museum in Missouri but if I ever find myself in that part of the world I'll be sure to look out for it. I was able to stay on the Queen Mary in Long Beach though and spent about four days exploring every bit of her I could access. While the ship has had many changes such as a restaurant now cutting into the promenade I think overall the operators have done a good job of maintaining such a huge ship in as much as possible a historical state. I very much wish I had had the chance to be on a ship like that while she was still on the ocean.

There's been some great comments to on the legal side of things. No port allowing her in is totally valid. Even if you could get Titanic Replica passengers to sign some sort of 'Assumption of risk, release and waiver of liability' ports wouldn't let a 1910's technology liner anywhere near their docks. If she crashed into the dock due to a lack of tugs, azipods, thrusters, etc the onus would probably be as much on the port authorities as it would the Replicas operators. A step around this might be to use the safety escort ship to ferry the passengers to a from the port, much in the way the original Titanic docked outside Cherbourg.

For workers health and safety this is another excellent point. This whole premise is going to the utter extreme of make the replica 100% authentic including a crew stoking the furnaces, etc. This might be an area where a bit of give is necessary such as giving the stokers re-breathers. I don't know if something along the lines of hazard pay would be enough to cover operating on this or would international law ban entirely working on what is effectively a floating death trap with only a nearby ship for support. Another comment mentioned crew diversity, looking at some figures of the original 908 crew 724 of them were from Southampton it would be pretty dubious to hire a predominately white English crew. There's the moral discriminatory aspect not to mention the practical difficulty in finding skilled workers within a single demographic willing to take the job with its unique circumstances. This is an area in my opinion where authenticity again would need to give way to practically and a spirit of inclusiveness.

A last point, I know this is getting long, was disabled passengers. Its a really amazing point and I'm glad Aaron 2016 brought it up. I'm not sure about this, this entire thread is legally way out on a limb as it is. This might again be a situation where authenticity and accuracy bend a little and a couple of cabins are replaced with disabled bathrooms and facilities. In terms of getting around the ship I imagine even in 1912 someone in a wheelchair would have been able to explore much of the ship owing to the continuous flow of rooms and the elevators from A to E deck. If they wished to visit the engine room or boilers though something like that might require assistance from some crew specifically trained to do so in a respectful way.

Anyway I've rambled enough. A warts and all Titanic replica seems like a stretch but really looking forward to the Honor and Glory game being finished, I've always wanted to be able to explore the Titanic and that's probably going to be the best way to do so for a long time yet.

Its always fun to ponder these things. This was an interesting and informative thread...Thanks.

 

[Rancor]

After a bit of thought I reckon a sea-going replica could be possible, but perhaps not 100% authentic due to the many reasons others have mentioned regarding passenger comfort and modern safety regulations.

Some careful design and planning could be undertaken to give potential passengers a pretty close experience though. As stated above, not many would want to spend the entire time in a 3rd class cabin with a bunch of other people they didn't know, but what if as part of a 3 or 4 day cruise you spent a day in each class. The fine dining experience of 1st class with a steward for your every need on your first day, then on day two you get to see what it was like in third class for a single night, complete with the Irish dancing session as per the movie (which is what most people will want to relate to anyway). Modern amenities such as additional toilets and showers would perhaps have to be added here and there, but if kept to the style of the rest of the fittings it wouldn't detract from the experience much, most people wouldn't know that they weren't on the original vessel.

In terms of not enough things to do for a modern audience, I think this could be marketed as a plus. Call it a 'digital detox' - no phones or modern electronics allowed. Experience life like it was in the 1900s with less distractions and more time for yourself and your family. Have a good stock of period correct newspapers and books for people to read, along with deck games, the swimming pool, squash court, board games or just sitting on deck watching the world go by. An important part of the experience would also be a good selection of period clothing for people to wear, appropriate for whatever class they are in for the day. A surprising amount of people love playing dressups.

As for modern safety features, I don't have any experience in this area, but I think again with some careful design you could integrate a proper fire detection system, Public Address, radar and lifejackets without it being obvious. I'm sure it would be possible to build a smoke detection system that could be hidden in a chandelier, with additional fire hoses and extinguishers hidden in cupboards in the corridors. Life jackets and emergency equipment could be modern just discreetly hidden away unless required. Radar could be installed in a fake crowsnest on the foremast. Not sure about lifeboats, perhaps they could be styled to look more correct to the era. Radio would be a requirement on the bridge but could be kept in the wheelhouse with the radar display, GPS and other modern equipment as necessary (even these could be made to look Edwardian to the casual observer) whilst the navigating bridge would be 100% original.

Technical requirements, I think triple expansion engines and the turbine would be possible. A lot of people would show interest in this area. As for hand firing boilers I originally thought this might be a step too far, that it wouldn't be possible to have anyone work in these conditions. But there are plenty of small steamships where people volunteer to shovel coal. Modern PPE in the form of dust-masks and heat/fire protection would be a must though.

Could still have steam driven auxiliaries perhaps with electric backup for the super important stuff. Steam driven electrical generation could also work, but you'd probably have to generate in AC. Also replace the emergency dynamos with diesel generators.

Air-conditioning would have to be fitted in somewhere. Perhaps decommission some of the third class cabins and put the plant in there.

All this said, while technically and perhaps even economically possible, I personally do not think a real life replica Titanic should be made. In my opinion it is best to have the research, pictures and digital recreations that still allow us to build an experience of the original vessel and try and understand the tragedy that everyone on her went though.

Maybe you could build a replica and name her Olympic, but you'd probably find most people would have no idea what ship you are talking about.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

It seems the profit on steerage was only if filled with 1500 to 2000 persons ? There were only 709 on Titanic.
Of course I believe the total onboard was only about 50% of those available.

Evidently the makers of "Titanic" (1953) were not aware of this.:
When the leading character (Richard Ward Sturges-(Clifton Webb) tries to book passage at Cherbourg , he is told "Titanic has been sold out for months."
I don't think it would have made much difference in the plot of the movie if he had bought a First Class ticket.
Of course, just another error, The rave reviews seem to indicate the general public liked the movie, but there seems to be a difference of opinion on this website. LOL

This is all intended as pure fiction.
Pure supposition at best.......or worst. LOL.
In the 1953 "Titanic" Sturges" goes up from Third Class/Steerage to First Class to join his wife, son and daughter in the Dining Salon .
In real life, would this be possible ?
If so , would "Sturges" have to purchase a First Class Ticket ?
In the movie he seems to join them in their First Class Cabin but still by way of Third Class/Steerage.
Would some Official of the ship have noticed that "Richard Ward Sturges" was not on the First Clsss Passenger List and taken action ?
Of course, some Titanic fanatics consider this movie as sort of a "soap opera" and it does lack a bit on historical accuracy.

This post should have been made in the "Titanic Movies" section ?

 

[Harland Duzen]

New idea! Very simple, but why not build the ship's exterior and make the interior of the superstructure deck (Boat Deck - C Deck). While staying inside might not be feasible to do nowadays, People would probably still love to walk the Boat Deck and Fore-Castle Deck and this would still allow them to see some interiors like the gymnasium, bridge, marconi room etc.

This is all intended as pure fiction.
Pure supposition at best.......or worst. LOL.
In the 1953 "Titanic" Sturges" goes up from Third Class/Steerage to First Class to join his wife, son and daughter in the Dining Salon .
In real life, would this be possible ?

No.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Hello, I made the original post and really appreciate the detailed and well thought out responses on here.

I really do very much doubt something like a precise replica would ever be attempted for numerous safety and financial reasons all included in this thread. If there was some eccentric billionaire out there though I think the task of actually constructing a fourth Olympic Liner would be entirely doable. There's currently 225,000 tonne cruise ships being launched so a 45,000 tonne ocean liner is in the scope of a midsize build. The real expense I imagine would be going for that authenticity, rediscovering riveting techniques, cast molding the engine blocks, all that guild wood carving, etc. If someone had enough money and determination though building an exact replica would not be overly difficult. Getting it onto the ocean with people onboard it would be entirely another matter though..

They could create a ship within a ship! Like this. With walkways and tour guides escorting groups to the center piece attraction in the middle. "This is the Captain speaking. Dinner will be served aboard the Titanic at 7pm."

.