Seagoing Authentic Titanic Replica with Escort Ship?

[Robert T. Paige]

I liked the movie. It was entertaining. But just like Cameron's film Titanic was a back drop for a fictional story. Plus I always liked Barbra Stanwyck. If you watch her movies from the 30's and 40's she was quite the sharp tongued looker. "Sassy but Classy" as they used to say.

The 1953 "Titanic" was my first exposure to the Titanic story. I have DVD's of it, ANTR and the 1997 version.
I have also some of the TV series.
My favorline in the 1953 movie is when Annette complains to Juia that they have a bad table in the Dining Salon .
Julia's reply is "Be brave, Annete, these tragedies happen in life."

 

[MichaelMacleod]

They could create a ship within a ship! Like this. With walkways and tour guides escorting groups to the center piece attraction in the middle. "This is the Captain speaking. Dinner will be served aboard the Titanic at 7pm."



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That's pretty brilliant!

 

[Scott Mills]

Actually the real money makers were 1st class passengers not 3d class. A 1st class passenger (even 2nd class) paid much more for his cabin than 3rd class.
Mark Chirnside published a paper about it, would need to look for the link.

The money was really in immigrant trade. Volume, volume, volume. That's why you saw radical changes in North Atlantic passenger shipping in 1918, 1921, and 1924 as the United States progressively placed more and more controls on the number of people who could enter the country. A large number of ships had to be pulled from their routes altogether, there was a marked increase in seasonal "cruising" (a conscious effort was made to sell "cruise" holidays for the first time), and ships were refit en masse. Eventually "third class" or "steerage" disappeared altogether and became "tourist class."

I mean, even the case of the Olympic Class liners--the fourth funnel was added because of the impression White Star and Harland & Wolf felt a fourth funnel would make on immigrant travelers. This is an important distinction. As "luxurious" as the Olympic Class liners were supposed to be, much of her design was dedicated to making the ships more attractive to immigrants rather than merely appealing to the wealthy.

There are a number of great books on the general history of the transatlantic passenger trade I would recommend if you want to learn more about the actual economics of ocean liners. A couple approachable ones are:

The Only Way to Cross by John Maxtone-Graham; AND
Transatlantic: Samuel Cunard, Isambard Brunel, and the Great Atlantic Steamships by Stephen Fox.

The only part that is sad to me is there are not really any books out there dealing with the other big routes like the transpacific and the England-South Africa-Australia routes.

 

[Scott Mills]

In terms of not enough things to do for a modern audience, I think this could be marketed as a plus. Call it a 'digital detox' - no phones or modern electronics allowed. Experience life like it was in the 1900s with less distractions and more time for yourself and your family. Have a good stock of period correct newspapers and books for people to read, along with deck games, the swimming pool, squash court, board games or just sitting on deck watching the world go by. An important part of the experience would also be a good selection of period clothing for people to wear, appropriate for whatever class they are in for the day. A surprising amount of people love playing dressups.

A couple thoughts here, I wonder how successful you could really be having a replica of the Titanic then trying to sell it as a "digital detox" vacation. Particularly given that I am almost positive 99.9% of the appeal of such a ship is going to be it is a replica of Titanic; meaning, I think, people are really going to want to bring their cameras and phones (to use as cameras) to record their experience and the ship.

The other thing that suddenly occurred to me is that with a "true" replica, you have to deal with the fact that Titanic's electrical system was not designed in a way that would make powering any modern electronics--computers, phones, cameras, etc.--that people might bring on board an easy task.

As for modern safety features, I don't have any experience in this area, but I think again with some careful design you could integrate a proper fire detection system, Public Address, radar and lifejackets without it being obvious. I'm sure it would be possible to build a smoke detection system that could be hidden in a chandelier, with additional fire hoses and extinguishers hidden in cupboards in the corridors. Life jackets and emergency equipment could be modern just discreetly hidden away unless required. Radar could be installed in a fake crowsnest on the foremast. Not sure about lifeboats, perhaps they could be styled to look more correct to the era. Radio would be a requirement on the bridge but could be kept in the wheelhouse with the radar display, GPS and other modern equipment as necessary (even these could be made to look Edwardian to the casual observer) whilst the navigating bridge would be 100% original.

I imagine you pretty much have to assume that something along the Titanic II plans would need to be used. In addition to all of the things you mentioned, you would need to replace nearly all of the wooden fittings, carpeting, drapes, etc., with something non-flammable. I am guessing wood and coal burning fireplaces, heaters, and kitchen appliances would have to go too--plus most professional chefs aren't going to want to cook with circa 1912 kitchen appliances in any case!

Technical requirements, I think triple expansion engines and the turbine would be possible. A lot of people would show interest in this area. As for hand firing boilers I originally thought this might be a step too far, that it wouldn't be possible to have anyone work in these conditions. But there are plenty of small steamships where people volunteer to shovel coal. Modern PPE in the form of dust-masks and heat/fire protection would be a must though.

Here is the thing about this... we are not talking about a paddle steamer on the Ohio river here. We are talking about a 50k ton ship whose steam plant required 176 stokers/firemen, 73 coal trimmers, and 33 greasers to operate. This operation was not for an hour cruise up the river either, it was 24 hours a day. I am wondering where someone might find all those volunteers!

In addition a lot of those historic ships with the volunteers manage to get certain safety regulations waived in virtue of the historic value of keeping those vessels in as near original condition as possible. Since a Titanic replica is exactly that--a replica--I think it would be much more difficult to receive waivers based on the age and historical value of the ship itself.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Rancor]

A couple thoughts here, I wonder how successful you could really be having a replica of the Titanic then trying to sell it as a "digital detox" vacation. Particularly given that I am almost positive 99.9% of the appeal of such a ship is going to be it is a replica of Titanic; meaning, I think, people are really going to want to bring their cameras and phones (to use as cameras) to record their experience and the ship.

The other thing that suddenly occurred to me is that with a "true" replica, you have to deal with the fact that Titanic's electrical system was not designed in a way that would make powering any modern electronics--computers, phones, cameras, etc.--that people might bring on board an easy task.



I imagine you pretty much have to assume that something along the Titanic II plans would need to be used. In addition to all of the things you mentioned, you would need to replace nearly all of the wooden fittings, carpeting, drapes, etc., with something non-flammable. I am guessing wood and coal burning fireplaces, heaters, and kitchen appliances would have to go too--plus most professional chefs aren't going to want to cook with circa 1912 kitchen appliances in any case!



Here is the thing about this... we are not talking about a paddle steamer on the Ohio river here. We are talking about a 50k ton ship whose steam plant required 176 stokers/firemen, 73 coal trimmers, and 33 greasers to operate. This operation was not for an hour cruise up the river either, it was 24 hours a day. I am wondering where someone might find all those volunteers!

In addition a lot of those historic ships with the volunteers manage to get certain safety regulations waived in virtue of the historic value of keeping those vessels in as near original condition as possible. Since a Titanic replica is exactly that--a replica--I think it would be much more difficult to receive waivers based on the age and historical value of the ship itself.

Hey Scott, thanks for taking an interest in my half-brained ideas!

You are correct about the photos I reckon, one possible way to solve that without everyone whipping smartphones out all over the place and ruining the illusion would be to give everyone a period correct camera (or something that at least looks the part) with film for the duration of the cruise/voyage. Only a limited number of photos so you better take good ones.

There would have to be compromises on some fittings and furnishings to meet modern day code, but as long as it looked the part most people won't notice. My view here is not quite the 100% replica as Michael is envisioning, but something that looks and feels like the orignal with modern upgrades as neccessary just tactfully hidden away. Another example is the wiring. No point using period wiring when no passenger will see it and it will only present a possible hazard. You could even install power outlets in cabins if they were nice fittings that looked period correct.

I think you would struggle to find enough volunteer fireman. You would certainly have to have a paid crew. The point I was making was people still handfire coal boilers, even if not on the scale we are talking about. I'm not sure if it would be feasible to have a full compliment of stockers swinging shovels the entire voyage for the amusment of the small number of passengers who take an interest.


I can't comment on how the lifeboat and safety aspect would have to be incorporated as I'm not across the regulations.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Scott Mills]

I can't comment on how the lifeboat and safety aspect would have to be incorporated as I'm not across the regulations.

Thanks for reading.

I can comment on this briefly. Certainly there are requirements for the outfitting of the lifeboats themselves--for example you'd have to have enough of them and they'd have to be modern lifeboats. In addition SOLAS currently requires that lifeboats be placed no more than 90 feet from the deck to the water, which is why so many modern "cruise liners" and indeed the infamous "Titanic II" have lifeboat decks halfway down the hull; however, if the ship is designed as an ocean liner with the intention of moving passengers from point A to point B across the open ocean exceptions to SOLAS can be approved.

For example, Queen Mary 2 has just such an exception based on the fact that 50% of its time is dedicated to the North Atlantic "passenger route" (more like the nostalgic open sea North Atlantic 'cruise' route). This exception is based on the height of waves the ship could potentially encounter in the open ocean, and that these waves could either do serious damage to low-hung lifeboats, or seriously impeded any necessary evacuation from the 90 foot deck limit in heavy seas.

So, you could potentially get an exception for your replica if it is designed as an ocean liner to run this route. If you did though, you would need to change the appearance and character of the Olympic class liner's original boat deck significantly. This is most likely why such an exception was not sought for Titanic II, because it was figured with the addition of the lifeboat safety deck below the original boat deck, one could maintain the aesthetics--and even keep the old davits and boat arrangement--which was present on Titanic's boat deck.

 

[Rancor]

I can comment on this briefly. Certainly there are requirements for the outfitting of the lifeboats themselves--for example you'd have to have enough of them and they'd have to be modern lifeboats. In addition SOLAS currently requires that lifeboats be placed no more than 90 feet from the deck to the water, which is why so many modern "cruise liners" and indeed the infamous "Titanic II" have lifeboat decks halfway down the hull; however, if the ship is designed as an ocean liner with the intention of moving passengers from point A to point B across the open ocean exceptions to SOLAS can be approved.

For example, Queen Mary 2 has just such an exception based on the fact that 50% of its time is dedicated to the North Atlantic "passenger route" (more like the nostalgic open sea North Atlantic 'cruise' route). This exception is based on the height of waves the ship could potentially encounter in the open ocean, and that these waves could either do serious damage to low-hung lifeboats, or seriously impeded any necessary evacuation from the 90 foot deck limit in heavy seas.

So, you could potentially get an exception for your replica if it is designed as an ocean liner to run this route. If you did though, you would need to change the appearance and character of the Olympic class liner's original boat deck significantly. This is most likely why such an exception was not sought for Titanic II, because it was figured with the addition of the lifeboat safety deck below the original boat deck, one could maintain the aesthetics--and even keep the old davits and boat arrangement--which was present on Titanic's boat deck.

This is interesting. Wikipedia tells me that Titanic had a height from keel to top of bridge of 104 feet. Draught of 34 feet. So this is a height from waterline to bridge (which was about the same height as the lifeboats) of 70 feet. So technically height of the lifeboats would be acceptable according to the modern regulations?

 

[Scott Mills]

This is interesting. Wikipedia tells me that Titanic had a height from keel to top of bridge of 104 feet. Draught of 34 feet. So this is a height from waterline to bridge (which was about the same height as the lifeboats) of 70 feet. So technically height of the lifeboats would be acceptable according to the modern regulations?

I am sorry, I misspoke the actual distance required by SOLAS between a davitted lifeboat and the waterline of the vessel is 15 meters (so 49 feet!) I don't know why that 90 feet number jumped into my head as I know QM2 received her SOLAS exception and houses her lifeboats 82 (or is it 85?) from her waterline.

So, in other words, no. Titanic's lifeboat height would not be allowed under SOLAS without a granted exception.

Interesting fact though, besides a lot of things we've discussed here the Olympic class vessels exceed SOLAS requirements when it comes to the arrangement of their bulkheads and their ability to survive (stay afloat) in the event of breaches to their hulls.

This means, relative to Titanic, almost every cruise ship afloat would sink much more quickly than Titanic should they suffer the type of flooding Titanic experienced!

 

[SirPhillip]

For me, it´s a dream to travel in a titanic replica.

100% equal is imposible, but something as similar as posible.

Any hope about Palmer´s Titanic II?

 

[Scott Mills]

I feel like someday something like this will happen, but I am pretty sure Palmer's Titanic II is a pipe dream on his part. Development was suspended a number of years ago, and there have been no further updates. In the software industry Palmer's Titanic II would be referred to as "vaporware."

 

[SirPhillip]

Palmer is a billionaire, so a don´t understand the problem.

Why Cunard don´t built Titanic 2? For sure there would be people interessed.

Why do you thing is the most close to a titanic experiencie nowadays? Southhampton to NY in Queen Mary 2?

 

[Scott Mills]

The problem is that, unless you are Bill Gates or Saudi Royal Family billionaire, being a billionaire does not mean you have liquidity such that you can afford a ship whose costs would be pretty damn close to a billion dollars. So even someone like Palmer has to secure extra funding and investment to be able to actually build the ship.

As far as Cunard goes, I find this highly unlikely. Cunard is now owned and operated by Carnival Cruise Ltd. and operates as a luxury cruise brand. It is highly doubtful that Carnival wants to build a replica of Titanic, and certainly not one thrown under the umbrella of Cunard--the return on investment is probably very difficult to justify on paper. Additionally, Cunard, despite vague promises otherwise has built no new ocean liners since Queen Mary 2.

Cunard has ordered two (I think it is two) new ships since Queen Mary 2; however, neither of these ships were sister ocean liners meant for the North Atlantic.

 

[Rancor]

Clive Palmer in a spot of bother at the moment. Clive Palmer's assets frozen by Supreme Court over Queensland Nickel collapse - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

It might be a bit of a struggle for him to complete the project while all this is going on.

 

[Kas01]

Cunard has ordered two (I think it is two) new ships since Queen Mary 2; however, neither of these ships were sister ocean liners meant for the North Atlantic.

I'm not entirely sure how well the Vista-class handles in the North Atlantic in the winter, but I doubt the boys and girls in Southampton, Seattle, or Genoa want to find out. According to the almighty Wikipedia, QE and QV have a revised bow, but other than that, they're pretty much stock Vista-classes.

 

[Kas01]

I've long thought that if a cruise line thought there was money to be made it would have made part of an existing ship into a replica of Titanic's best accommodation in around 1997.

Coincidentally, I'm getting an ad from Celebrity Cruises on the bottom of the screen. IIRC Celebrity Millenium had part of her main dining room paneled with designs similar to the Olympic-class, although I'm not sure if they're identical fittings. Not sure if they're still there or not.