Should The Wreck Site Be Declared Off Limits

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wendi parker

Guest
When i think about anyone going down there at all for anything other then research, i think of the book 'Something's Alive on Titanic.' i know its just fiction but you really have to wonder about what happened to all their energy when they died. you hear all the time about people dying violent deaths or dying before their time and they end up this negative energy. what if that happened down there....
I dont know what to believe about the whole thing.
I think that we've been down there disturbing their graves enough. we should let them rest in peace.
like at a cemetery. do we get right down in the grave, no. we stand above and pay our respects. it would be nice if we could do that for Titanic. stand above it and pay respects.
but on the other hand, i would love to see more pictures or would love for ballard or whoever to explore her more.
i just dont want everyday people to go down there. why should they?


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wendi
 
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steve b

Guest
Wendy-I agree 100%. For some odd reason all i can think of when i think of the goldiggers who constantly go there in search of lost treasure, i think back to the Los Angeles riots of the 80s after the OJ Simpson trial. I was never more disgusted with humanity then i was at that point. These were people jsut looking for any lame excuse to justify thievery, and to me its the same image i get when i think of the salvage operations. What in Gods name makes these people think have any right touching any of these items there, let alone being at the site? It is a place where most everything anyone had in this life was carried with them, in hopes oif finding a better life. The dreams they had were suddenly shattered, and theyre life long possesions lay at the bottom of the ocean floor. Do people not have one once of dignity or respect for these poor people? What in Gods name doeS ANYONE have doing there? No, im sorry, but that little piece of of earth should forever belong to them. Those people died a horrible death, and while they had 2000 people with them, many dies alone and terrified. This is the place the left this world and went to another, and its high time science and everyone else recognized this. They should be given peace. Its bad enough they had to die such horrible deaths. But to see theyre personal belongings picked up like a riot scene, thats the equal of someone spiting on someones grave..Enoughs enough/..Sorry for the emotional tone but thats how i feel
 
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David R. McCann

Guest
Greetings To All,
I'm relatively new to the site, but I would like to offer some food for thought on why we should limit dives to Titanic. On a Discovery Channel Special in 1998, "Titanic Live", remarks had been made that the "rusticle" damage was significantly worse in 1998 than it had appeared in 1996. And it seems most reports indicate that it is continuing to get worse. Little is known about these "rusticles", other than the fact that each successive dive seems to report more "rusticle" damage. When Titanic was first found, she appeared to be in very good shape, considering the number of years she had been below the ocean's surface. Now that she has been located, there have been a considerably higher number of dives to her over the past few years. Just a thought here, what if these dives are accelerating the degradation of Titanic. We are alien to this bottom of the sea world. Like a bee pollinates the plants, each dive could be carrying the "pollen" to enhance the growth of the "rusticles". Until our arrival, there was probably very little movement down there. Now each time a thruster is turned on, or each time a piece of the ship is bumped by an R O V, we see pieces of the "rusticles" crumble and float through the water, like pollen floating through the air on a windy day. Whether this theory is true or not, who knows. But it does make good food for thought. Have a good day all.
Best,
Dave M.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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Hi David, you kight want to check out Dr Cullimore's article on ET about biodeterioration of the RMS Titanic for some more insights on this. Offhand, I would offer the opinion that the dives in and of themselves have little impact on the accelerated deterioration of the ship as the actual numbers of dives and the time spent on site is reletively low. Most of the time, the Titanic is alone and unmolested.

The problem lies with the iron eating microbes which are doing the deed and they live right there on the bottom! They just keep on doing their thing whether anybody is poking around or not. When you get right down to it, dives to the wreck in the future will have to be conducted with considerably more care as the deterioration will make any such poking around much more dangerous then it already is.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
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David R. McCann

Guest
Michael,
Thank you for the info. I had been curious as to what had happened during the studies conducted by Dr. Cullimore back in 1998. Hopefully we can all learn more about her, before the deterioration claims her for ever. Thanks.
Best,
Dave McCann
 
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steve b

Guest
Interesting aside to this discussion, because i know its always most likely been impractical to try and even think about attempting it, but im sure there have been a few that smelled money and thought they could pull off this stunt. Let us suppose, for a moment, disregarding Titanics size, that at one point in time somebody wanted to raise her?
My first question in this regard would be, at what point did the ship detoriorate so badly that it is physically impossible to raise her just because of the damage done by the ocean over the course of time? Would there ever have been a window of oppurtunity to do such a thing, and if so for how many years before the elements woiuld have rusted the body so bad that it would be impossible?
And secondly, this is another fickle area for this subject, just who would have rights to her if she was raised? I know im speaking on hypothetical terms here, but the thought has always interested me. The more and more i think about though, im glad she cant be raised. I have no desire to see a war over salvage rights and display accomadations once she returns being waged by some little guy with glasses whos eyes are lighting up like a cash register and his bells ringing like one
 
Dec 2, 2000
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I think it was impractical from day one, but not because the iron eating bacteria had a taste for wrecked ships. The structural damage done when the ship broke up was just too substantial.

An interesting example to consider was the attempt by the Glomar Explorer to raise a sunken Soviet missile submarine. The ship was reletively intact, and hadn't been on the bottom long and getting it in the grapples wasn't the problem. However on the way up, some of the grapples broke, and a section of the boat amounting to about two thirds of her length broke away. All they got was the bow.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
Jul 10, 2005
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Yes, I was going to bring up the Glomar also! Must be we watch the same shows Michael!! LOL

I concur, I believe it was totally impractical from day one also, and I really wish that they would have left the "BIG piece" down there with the rest of the ship.

I really love to see the artifacts and all, but I still think it should remain a tomb, to be visited, not touched.

Beverly
 
Dec 2, 2000
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I suppose common interests breed common viewing habits.
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And since were on the subject of documentaries, I understand the Discovery Channel is presenting thier show on The Real Jack Dawson and Titanic, Lost Ship, Lost Souls on the 22cnd of August.

I'll be having my tape ready!

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
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steve b

Guest
Its funny to think though, what a stir would have been caused if even the bow was able to raised of Titanic. Somehow i picture a lot of laywers and long days in court arguing who has rights to it..Kinda sickening actually. In a weird way, in terms of that, the ebst thing that could have happened to Titanic in this respect happened by where the accident occured. Thank god many potentila grave robbers and gold diggers have been turned away by the daunting task over going to those depths of the ocean..Still, it hasnt stopped enough sadly
 
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Let me repeat what Kyrila has quoted on August 1st:

"it is 'a maritime memorial, a grave site and an underwater museum and laboratory."

I think the Titanic is nothing of that. What is the meaning of any memorial site, any grave site, any museum? People can visit these sites for remembering, mourning or getting informed. These places are normally kept in good condition for later generations. And to me a grave yard is a place were people are buried by people.

Not one of these points is valid for the Titanic: nobody (except wealthy people) can visit this site and in that depth it cannot be served for later generations.

To my opinion salvaging as much things as possible is the best way to bring (a part) of this tragedy to places were we can visit them and remember the ship and the people on board.
 
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I know I am probably standing alone with my point of view. But let me add the following: if any relicts of human beings would be found, I think this should be bring up and buried. What maybe would be the opinion of most of the drowned if they had been asked before whether to salvage them or not: "Let me rest on this ugly cold place" or "If possible, please salvage my corpse and bury me on a regular cemetery"?
 

Chris Dohany

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Jan 8, 2001
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Henning,
I happen to share your view on this issue. I expect few mariners would choose the shattered hulk of an underwater wreck as their final resting-place. Unless they are diehard seamen, the boat is simply their job.

Why shouldn't a body be recovered and attempts made to identify it? If the remains are identified, release them to the family to do as they wish; if not, bury the remains inland or cremate and scatter the ashes. Either way you remove the body from the wrecksite, and you remove the temptations to exploit it.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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I'm afraid the temptation to exploit it is there, human remains present or not. When $$$$$$$ talks, everything else seems to walk, the ethics notwithstanding.
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As to what mariners would choose, quite a few choose the option of being buried at sea, and I may excercise that option myself. As a retired Navy man, I have the right to be buried at sea from the decks of a U.S. warship. To those who make the sea a career, "the boat" is never just a job. She's something one may love or hate for her virtues and vices, but you do form an attatchment.

Word to the wise, never badmouth a sailor's ship even if you hear them doing it...unless you can duck real fast! It's a right to gripe that the officers and crews reserve for themselves, not outsiders.
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Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
 
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David R. McCann

Guest
Greetings To All,
I agree with Henning, If you will indulge me, please ponder the following...
For 80 plus years the sinking of Titanic had been a mystery. Each of these dives have helped us to learn more about what happened on the night of April 14, 1912. Though not conclusive, we now know it was not a gaping wound to Titanic's side that made her founder, but possibly an area covering approximately 12 square feet in the seams of the hull. Some even think she may have suffered some keel damage due to the iceberg. We have learned that she lies in 2 pieces on the ocean floor. We have learned, from scientists, that she is deteriorating and eventually she shall become a pile of rust on the ocean floor. And through these dives, bits and pieces of history have been brought to the surface for all to share. It was only a few years ago that all we knew about that fateful night came from firsthand accounts of passengers and crew. There were still questions unanswered and inconsistencies. But thanks to the efforts of people like Robert Ballard and George Tulloch, In just a few years, we have learned a lot more about Titanic's fateful maiden voyage. Before we decide to ban these explorations, please ponder this...Can we learn more about Titanic in continued dives? I think the answer is yes. The bigger question is do we want to learn more? Definitely! But that has to come with some expected and sometimes unwanted outcomes whatever they be. Titanic has been a series of mysteries and with each dive, the mystery has become more clear. I think those who say not to continue, may have had their mystery solved if you will. But to some of us she is still a mystery and we must continue to explore her for the answers. My apologies for being so long winded here and I hope I haven't angered anyone. Thank you.
Best,
Dave McCann
 
Jul 10, 2001
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David raised a very intersting point when he wrote: "Titanic has been a series of mysteries and with each dive, the mystery has become more clear". The question is: do we want to keep this disaster as a mystery? Any mystery is a cumulation of legends and involves a lot of open questions and many "maybes". The more we know about the Titanic the smaller the mystery becomes. As a journalist I prefer facts instead of mysteries.

On the other hand Michael is right when he says: "When $$$$$$$ talks, everything else seems to walk, the ethics notwithstanding". But even when they marry down at the wreck (what a couple has done end of July), I say: as strange as it is, let them do, it is their personal thing and personal feeling of luck - if they can afford it. Main thing is: they did not touch anything. Except maybe themselves, but I really do believe they did not make love while diving...
(I know that my opinion to that wedding is very contradictionary specially to Titanic societies which have officially protested against this wedding. What can I do - thats what I think about it...)
 
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sherry otoole

Guest
Just a thought for all those who disagree with items being salvaged from the Titanic. In 50 years time would anyone remember without these items. i think it's importatant so my Great Great grandchildren will know about it and can see these things in a museum. It reminds us of how arrogant humans can be, and the results of that arrogence. Since shipwrecks are generally not covered in school history,it is most likely that not too many kids will know about her in years to come,without these reminders. At the rate titanic is detiorating there won't be much left if any. As far as touring deathcamps(someone mentioned them)the same it reminds us of how Hitler tried to exterminate a race and that should be remembered we should never forget what happened and all the brave men who served so we can have our freedom.
 

Adam Leet

Member
May 18, 2001
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That argument has been made many times, and is indeed valid. There are, however, alternatives to salvage (with the exception from forensic analysis of the wreck.) For example, some of Olympic's fittings survive in the White Swan Hotel in Britain; a near representation of Titanic's Lounge, albeit her sister's. Another would be the countless photos taken of the wreck itself, as well as period photos of the ship before the disaster.

Basically, what I'm saying is that there are more ways to remember Titanic than grabbing items from the seabed, and placing them out of context in a museum.


Adam
 
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steve b

Guest
Sherry im going to very respectfully disagree with you here on this. I dont need relic or paintings or other things to remind me. I thinbk the story of Titanic itsself is a powerful gripping story that calls across the years and reminds us how blind we can be to our own mortality. What can a relic or lost artifact teach that we cannot find in the story itself? In those things you wont find the dreams, the compelling human drama, the heroicism that came from that night. Neither will you find the tragedies, the stories of how peoples lives were affected for years. Personally, maybe im different like that, but im not drawn to collections and things like that. Maybe thats partly because i view these people who recover them as grave robbers and have no right touching what never did belong to them in the first place. Just because you take your fancy submarine to bottom before anyone else doesnt mean you have any right touching it. None whatsoever. Science is the only ones that have any rights at all there, and even that to me is a little questionable to me. I mean do not misunderstand me. Im all for learning what we can. But doesnt there finally come a time when the people who lost theyre lives there that night, do not they ever get the chance to be at peace? My point comes back to the smae thing. Titanic, not the artifacts or relics on board her, and Titanics people, thats what draws me beack here time and again to learn about her. The story is of itsself powerful. No, im sorry. i will never attend a memoribila show or recovered artifacts show> They show me nothing. Titanic was the ship of dreams. And the power of her story lies within those dreams, and what happened to them. All on one beautiful starlit night. One that changed people forever.And as far as the deathcamps go. Im also sorry, but ill never have the heart to visit a place where so little value was placed on human life, and people died horrendous deaths at the hands of maniacs. If ever a place ghosts exsisted, i bet it would be there, and id surely hear the painful cries of those wondering why they were being put to death because of a relgious choice. I dont think i need to see it to be reminded. The story in of itsself is painful enough