Something to whet the appetite?

Jim Currie

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But enough of this from you and I. Recall that you started this thread with a diagram that was faulty.

Unfortunately we can't all be perfect Sam nor are we all perfectionists. However I am perfectly able to produce an accurate sketch if I want to, Can't remember when last a school master marked my work.:D

I hit the ball back into your court by replying in the same vein.

But enough of this from you. Lets bring a bit of common sense and constructive thinking back into the debate. I'll deal with your witnesses at the end.

If you care to measure Titanic's main engine room, you will find that it was highly unlikely that any one of the two engineers on duty was more than 80 feet from the Control platform when the first engine order came.
Both these men would drop what they were doing and run to the controls. They were young, fit men. It is therefore highly unlikely that they would be running at less than 10 feet per second. This means that the farthest away engineer would reach the Control Platform 8 seconds after the telegraphs first rang. The time for response would be less according to where the nearest man was to the controls
It took 10 seconds for the main engines to come to a halt from when the engineer shut off the steam. Consequently, the main engines came to a halt no more than 18 seconds after Murdoch rang down STOP. Probably much less than that. The Engineers would activate the stoke-hold STOP STOKING signal a few seconds after they began shutting-down.
Here's a little plot of the sequence of events. It is compiled from the evidence of Hichens, Boxhall, Olliver, Barratt and to a lesser extent..Beauchamp. I leave you to fill-in the blank spaces and mark accordingly.:eek:

View attachment 1361
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Titanic sank at 41° 43.5’N, 49° 56.8’W. The estimated position of her wreckage when Californian departed the area is a distance of about 10 nautical miles southward from the wreck site. Seen amongst the wreckage was overturned Collapsible boat B, some deck chairs, a few lifebelts, and other small debris. From leeway studies that led to models used by search and rescue (SAR) teams we find that for such debris, including an overturned life raft, it would take about 26 knots of sustained wind to cause that wreckage to drift those 10 miles in almost 7 hours from the time the wind sprang up to the time that Californian departed the area at 11:20. This is a wind speed at the high end of a Force 6 wind on the Beaufort scale which is listed as a “strong breeze” with average wave heights of 9 feet (max 12 feet), and described as large waves that begin to form with white foam crests that are “more extensive everywhere (probably some spray).” These conditions never took place, and certainly not sustained for 7 hours of time.

Now let's let others join in if they care to. I think they heard enough from both of us, and I have more important business to attend to.
 

Doug Criner

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For my benefit, can either of you explain why this issue is critically important? Is it just an historical curiosity, like whether the orchestra played Nearer My God to Thee? Or does it bear on a fundamental question regarding the sinking?
 

Jim Currie

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For my benefit, can either of you explain why this issue is critically important? Is it just an historical curiosity, like whether the orchestra played Nearer My God to Thee? Or does it bear on a fundamental question regarding the sinking?

Look at it this way Doug.

If someone goes into print with a book about history, it is very important that the history is accurate to the last possible detail. I would hope that you agree on that.

The fact that a specific current was or was not running that night is very important in that its presence must be accounted for when establishing and recording the movements of the ice and all vessels in the vicinity of the disaster before, during and after it happened.
Specifically; such a current would effect the stopping positions of Titanic, Californian and Mount Temple.
It would have an effect on the passage of Mount Temple up and down the west side of the ice- slwing her down when going north and helping her along when going south. Likewise, it would effect the speed of Californian's southward dash along the west side of the ice and Carpathia's north westward dash toward the survivors. It would assist the rowing efforts of survivors in the lifeboats when heading toward the south and prevent them from effectively rowing northward at all. In particular, the knowledge of it's presence would help the investigation into the identity of the vessel seen by Titanic during those fateful hours after Midnight, April 14.

Likewise, the establishment of the exact ship time on board Titanic is also important in establishing several things, the principal of which is whether or not, Titanic increased speed after she turned The Corner.

I suggest that the knowledge as to the title of the tune played by the band is of no less importance in that it helps to create a true record of an historic event.

Jim C
 

Jim Currie

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I have more important business to attend to.[/QUOTE]

I don't Sam. So you take yourself away and do your thing. While you're away, I'll explain why I think you are wrong, to any others who might have nothing else to do but read this.

Sam wrote:

"Californian departed the area is a distance of about 10 nautical miles southward from the wreck site."

Yes she did. But it does not prove anything.

"Seen amongst the wreckage was overturned Collapsible boat B,


Yes it was but not by Lord. He stated that he was surprised by how little wreckage there was. His exact words were:

"I saw several empty boats, some floating planks, a few deck chairs, and cushions; but considering the size of the disaster, there was very little wreckage. It seemed more like an old fishing boat had sunk."

The empty boats were those about to be back-loaded onto Carpathia.
Captain Rostron: "We got all the boats alongside and all the people up aboard by 8:30."
The jetsome was possibly stuff thrown overboard by those disembarking from the boats?

"This is a wind speed at the high end of a Force 6 wind on the Beaufort scale"

From Captain Rostron:"The wind and sea were then beginning to get up. There was a moderate breeze blowing then, and a little slop of the sea."

From the Beaufort Scale in use in 1912:

"Moderate Breeze: Wind 11-16 knots. Probable mean wave height 3 1/2 feet. Good working breeze.Smacks heel over considerably"

Hence Lowe's ability to sail his lifeboat at from 4 to 6 knots.
I can read SAR reports too Sam and have taken part in SAR operations. So we both can read!:rolleyes:

You quote evidence concerning the effects of a current etc. But I notice you decline to answer my question as to where you get your evidence that proves that a south-setting current was running that morning. Never mind. I think I can settle the argument here and now. But only if you agree to the following:

(1) That Californian on a course of about SSE, passed Mount Temple at 7-30am that morning
(2) That The latter was to the north of the longitude of 50-09'W and heading northward.
(3) That Californian was making between 13 and 13.5 knots at the time and finally
(4) That Californian turned ENE at about 8am and headed across the ice to join Carpathia which was in the process of loading the last of Titanic's empty lifeboats.

If you do agree to this list then we can wrap this part of the case up once and for all.

If Titanic sank at 2-20 am and there had been a south-setting current of 1.1 knots running, then by 8-30 am, the survivors in the immediate vicinity of the wreck who had not moved away, would be 5 miles to the south of the wreck location. They would then be at latitude 41-39' North or thereabouts. Agree?
Now consider the following plot or make a more accurate one for yourself:

Lord's departure.jpg

On the above plot, the distance between the 7-30 am location of Californian and the alternative 8 am turning point is approximately 11.5 miles. For Californian to have covered that distance in 30 minutes she would need to have been faster than Titanic. Her speed would have needed to be 23 knots. Not an option.

I look forward to your analysis. Barring that, may I assume by your silence that you agree with me?

Jim C.

Lord's departure.jpg
 

Jim Currie

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PS:

Just in case you pounce on it Sam....and for the sake of peace an accuracy... the maximum southerly latitude at 8-30 am that morning with a 1.1 knot current and help from a south-blowing wind of 16 knots would have been somewhere in the region of 41-34.7'North- at or near to the southern limit of the pack ice according to Without the current. they would have been at about 41-41.3 minutes North.

If you have studies SAR work, you will know that even with the science, there are too many variable to get an accurate position for drifting objects.The best is an educated guess.

Jim C.