Tale of Hoffman

[Laura Melinda Varjo]

I'm not going to say much, because I have to go somewhere, but I'm neutral.

I tend to agree with you Senan, and Shelley, sorry Randy.(still neautral, we gotta stop fighting) Yeah, you know, it's the same with me, I mean I do think that's falsehood saying he was expecting Marcelle to follow them, because you all know, you have read that they were sneaking out, going away w/o telling Marcelle, so how would she know then where they are in the world ? But, the other side of me says he DID meant that, because he really did like Marcelle, but he was just very,very mad at her for abandoning her family, not taking care of the children, nullifying him, according to Women and Children First. What Michel lived in was hope, I think, hope that Marcelle would collect herself one day.(After the sinking, she didn't have a choice.)

But, we might never know the complete truth of anything, probably not even the survivors them selves, ok I have to go, bye.

 

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

"The words are preposterous"

More preposterous than your article about Johanna Stunke?

"Don Lynch doesn't have children. Do you? Or do you just like romanticized sentiment?"

Don Lynch has been friends with and interviewed dozens of Titanic survivors in person. Have you? Or do you just like to criticize sources of historical information that you know nothing about?

For the record, I have helped raise my now 7 year-old nephew since his birth. I don't have to have fathered a child to raise and love one.

 

[Laura Melinda Varjo]

Back to the topic, this question was never answered, how did Michel and little Michel have their names recorded as Louis and Edmond's name as Lolo, in Mr. Lord's A Night to Remember ? Plus, from the 1994 A&E series,Michel said he was called Monmon, or something.

 

[Susan Alby]

Hi Laura, et all-
I do not share your sympathy with Michel- to say that Marcelle was "cold" was very unfair. Put yourself in her shoes for a moment...imagine you are a young mother and that your two most precious possessions were taken away from you and you didn't know their whereabouts. Then a few weeks later you find that they have been taken to a foreign country and are living with some strangers...

The words that Michel did or did not say to his son does not excuse him for his reproachable actions for taking them away from their mother in the first place. I don't blame Marcelle for being upset at his betrayal (a criminal offense by law). None of us can fully comprehend the emotions that the people on board the Titanic went thru as they said good-bye to their loved ones on the lifeboats. So let's not "judge" other's actions or intentions that we don't understand.

Lastly, lets ALL try to have respect for each other in our discussion's and avoid flame throwing. Come on, we are all part of the ET Community, which I am proud to call myself a part of!

Thank you.

 

[Laura Melinda Varjo]

Hello Susan,

I do not think you know the full story of the Navratils. You see, the very reason Michel left with his two sons is because Michel claimed his wife had an affair with an other man, and was not a responsible mother for the youngsters, and not a faithful wife.Then, saying what she did, as I've quoted in my first message, is VERY cold, good enough of HIM...what do you call that-fair ? (Not trying to sound mean, just expressing my opinion.)

Yeah, ET pride!

 

[Susan Alby]

Hi Laura-
Your right in that I don't know all the "facts" in this case, however I feel entitled to express my opinion on this topic. It is claimed that Marcelle had an affair, but does that make it so? By whose opinion was she an "unfit" mother? Were the children in any imminent danger staying with their mother in France?

I think what Michel did could be classified as an act of revenge against his wife for this alleged affair. Even if she was guilty, what I am saying is that did not make it "OK" for Michel to whisk her children away from their home and everything they knew. I am not questioning his love for his children because he did love them enough to get them in a lifeboat. But I don't think his actions could be classified as "heroic" in this context. Two wrongs don't make a right, but ultimately what mattered in this case was the children were returned safely to live with their mother.

>>what do you call that-fair ? <<

Sometimes life isn't fair (as I'm sure you know!)

 

[Laura Melinda Varjo]

Of course Susan! You are free to express ALL of your opinions. Yes, the case was even taken to court, so Marcelle DID have the affair, that is (partly)why they divorced. By whose opinion is she an unfair mother ? By her husband's, the jurors' apparently, and to mine. Were the children in an imminent danger staying with their mom in France ? No, they were not. Were they going to be ? Possibly. We are talking about a mother here to whom an other man was more important than family life. Michel was taking the children away so their children will not be left unloved and uncared for.

Oh yes, it was just, the kids were HIS as well, and apparently in their mother's eyes someone was more important than them. Michel reasoned ok, if she left me mind as well stay with him...but under all that Michel was hoping that his wife will miss him and the boys and will follow to a land that was far better than France. USA!

Life sure isn't ! But my mom says the survivor is who can surpass all of life's unfairness, hardships...and live life to the fullest. (I'm missing something of what she said, but you know what I mean.)

 

[Inger Sheil]

I have to say how much I enjoyed reading it. It's refreshing to see such a different style in a Titanic article...the Hoffman/Navratil story was one that I thought had been very well chewed-over, but not only was the approach enough to breath new life into it, I also learned more about this tragic couple. Very well illustrated too, I might add - there were some great images in there.

Susan and Laura, I find your posts exploring this domestic tragedy very interesting...these issues seem to be echoed in so many custody cases. Some people tend to think of these 'tug of love' cases as comparatively modern, but the Narvratil family demonstrate that this is not so.

 

[Laura Melinda Varjo]

Inger's right !

Anyways, humans will be always humans, of course these kinds of things happened even before the Navratils, but it's just that the rate is further increasing. Which, in my opinion is a VERY sad thing.

Oh! My back...good night!

 

[Senan Molony]

 

[monica e. hall]

Childhood memories are odd and unpredictable. I recall my father hoving into my view wearing a trilby hat - which he had never done before. It stuck in my mind, and I was in my pram at the time, so very young. He remembers it too. Apparently my persistent and baleful gaze rather put him off the offending headgear. I'm sure aspects of the Titanic night would have left fragmented but very powerful memories in the children. But I think they would mostly have been visual in the very young, not verbal. Children of 3 - 4 do not know how to converse, in the sense that adults do. What is important and memorable to them is different. I think, and this is only my opinion, that they are mostly concerned with their own security in an often bewildering world, in which they are powerless and dependent. So it seems unlikely that the little Navratil boy would have been concerned with passing on messages, even if he had had the rather unlikely vocabulary to do it. That said, there are always exceptions, however rare, and I agree with Randy that one does not have to have fathered children to love, understand, and raise them.

Given the general level of hype surrounding the more emotive aspects of the tragedy, I think it entirely likely that these words were put into the child's mouth by adults wanting to contribute to a good story.

I have to say, though, that I cannot imagine why the more saccharine witness attributions - entirely unprovable one way or another over 90 years later - should lead to people getting angry with each other.

 

[Paul Rogers]

Is there any information extant on M. Navratil being autistic, I wonder? My son could easily have remembered such a phrase - and repeated it verbatim some time afterwards - from circa age 3 onwards. But then he is an Asperger child and thus unusual; hence my query re. autism.

 

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Paul:

That's a good point about Michel's intelligence. As I understand it, he was something of a genius, and was a linguistics professor or something like that. I recall articles about him in the THS and TIS journals which bear out that the man was extraordinary.

 

[Senan Molony]

ECHO OF THE TITANIC DISASTER

Action in the French courts

Nice, February 9th (1914).

An action against the White Star Line arising out of the loss of the Titanic began today before the Civil Court here. The Plaintiff, Mme Navratil, sues for £6,000 damages for the loss of her husband. Her two children, who were also on board, were saved.

The Directors of the White Star Line contended that she was not entitled to appeal to a French court, as she was not a Frenchwoman. She thereupon asked for an adjournment for three months to enable her to prove that she was, and this was granted.

(The Times, Tuesday February 10, 1914, p. 7)

 

[Tommy]

How did Michel Navratil jr know German?