That Loraine Allison surviving theory


Adam McGuirk

Member
May 19, 2002
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On my way to Florida I needed a good read for the 15 hour drive so I checked out Don Lynch's "Titanic an Illustrated History". It was a great book, gave great facts and I especially enjoyed Ken Marshalls paintings. On page 214, there is a section called "What ever happened to Loraine Allison?". In it states that a Mrs. Loraine Kramer went on a talk show claiming that she was Loriane Allison and was rescued by a man named "Mr. Hyde." She stated that she had jewelry and everything and eventually got a lawyer. Up to this point I am thinking, interesting I never knew about this maybe she was saved but then they said by Thomas Andrews who was paid by Bruce Ismay to disappear so that he couldn't testify about Titanic's speed. I was just wondering what all of your thoughts on this were and if any of you had any more information.
Thanks,
Adam
 
Dec 8, 2000
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Hi Adam,

'Far fetched' is certainly a polite way of describing that one. If Thomas Andrews had survived, by what means did he survive? And if he did go on to lead a secret life post-Titanic, what manner of bribe would it have taken?

I remember Phil Gowan has providing some interesting information on the 'Loraine Kramer' story in the past. See: Alice Cleaver and Alice Mary Cleaver in Ohio?? Maybe there's even an update on this long promised book on the true story of 'Loraine Kramer'? I almost hope so, as I'd love to see Phil Gowan et al disect it.
 

Adam McGuirk

Member
May 19, 2002
567
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Yes Fiona, it is a pretty stupid theory. I am sure that if he would have gotten into a lifeboat someone would have recognized him and said he survived.
Adam
 
Apr 22, 2012
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I am sure that if he would have gotten into a lifeboat someone would have recognized him and said he survived.

Exactly! Mr. Andrews was well-known by both the passengers and the crew, and there would have been someone who recognized him had he survived. Besides, we have the recollection given by first class steward James Johnson of seeing Thomas in the smoking room at about 2:10 A.M. At that point, the only lifeboats left on the ship were Collapsibles A and B. Had he made it into either one of those, we would have surely known about it. B especially, as it was packed with members of the crew.


Cheers,
happy.gif


-B.W.
 
Mar 20, 1997
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Reading this thread reminds me of another ultimately fake case of miraculous survival, that originated around the same time. The woman Anna Anderson who claimed to be Anastacia, daughter of the Tsar of Russia, who was executed along with his family in the Russian Revolution.

I am amazed at how many years Anderson was taken seriously, and having seen her interviewed on In Search Of, she certainly delivered herself convincingly. It finally took the relatively new science of DNA testing to put that claim to rest.

If Loraine Kramer had had more savvy, she could well have gotten much more mileage out of the Lorainne Allison story. It got far fetched with the Andrews claim. My one question though, is has anyone established whether Alice Cleavor was involved in this hoax? I thought I had read that Kramer had gotten a hold of some documents given by Cleavor, or had claimed that as "Loraine Allison" she stayed with a Ms. Gray which was a pseudonym used by Cleavor after the sinking. Or maybe I'm going with information presented back when Alice Mary Cleaver was mixed up with Alice Katherine Cleavor but I thought there had been suspicions that Kramer was being fed info. by the former nurse.
 
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Karin Kasper

Guest
Arthur, I am also interested in Russian history, and I have a book written maybe ten years ago called "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson". The guy who wrote it researched "Anna's" entire life from when she was first found in Berlin, and I certainly believed it was Grand Duchess Anastasia after reading it and other books! Oh, well, so much for that, huh? There have been others through the years who have claimed to be one of the Imperial children, but they were all debunked throughout the years. The ones who truly amused me were the ones who claimed to be Tsareivich Alexei- a kid who was bedridden for six months from a bruise because of his hemophilia certainly wouldn't have survived the execution of the rest of his family.

Sorry for the off-topic post...
 
Jun 8, 2002
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Dear Arthur and Karin,

I happen to like "off-topic posts". Especially if the off-topic interests me!

DNA forensics--particularly mitochondrial DNA id's--such as were used in the positive id's of the Imperial children of his late Majesty, Tsar Nicholas II, are making it possible for us to identify (or de-bunk) assumed identifications of individuals buried at Halifax or claimants of descent of participants in the "Titanic" disaster.
It doesn't matter, I suppose, unless human teeth are recovered from the wreck site. Teeth are the richest and most enduring sources of mitochondrial DNA, and DNA matching technology exists to connect a victim to a relative. This is why the wreck site is, in fact, a grave.
Regards,
Doug
 
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Anja Walter

Guest
Does anyone know how the Andrews family reacted on "Loraine Allison's" story ?

Anja
 
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K. Lynsey Ayers

Guest
I know this post is probably quite late, but I wonder if any of you noticed that since you were talking about Nicholas II and his family's murder, the last post is dated July 16 at about 2.07, which would mean that it's about 84 years and eleven hours since the fateful murder. And if anyone was even wondering now, new truths about who's bones are missing at the grave in Yekaterinburg. Most likely, we all know that the Tsarevitch Aleksey isn't there, but everyone's got their own theories about the identity of the missing grand duchess. I read many Romanov books, being an avid fan of them myself. I would believe that Aleksey and Anastasia were missing only because they were alive. I couldn't really bring myself to believe people could be so cruel as to murder a fourteen year old boy and a seventeen year old girl, as well as their older sister(19, 21, 22), parents, and four servants. But alas, that's how politics goes! Anyways, the Russians and the Americans, longtime rivals, can not agree on the identity of the missing grand duchess. Everyone deems it clear that Grand Duchess Olga is there, but who could the missing girl be? I have come to the conclusion that it is Grand Duchess Tatiana, the second daughter. For more information, you can check out this page:
http://www.livadia.org/missing/

Just be warned, it is not for children under 12 or the faint of heart.
 
Jun 8, 2002
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Dear Ms. Ayers,

I also found that site fascinating. I had the pleasure of spending about two hours with Dr. William Maples, the man who led the American team in the positive identifications of the remains of the last Imperial Family of Russia, back in the early 90's. I was a Russian History major in college and, like the Titanic story, have always found the story of Nicholas and Alexandra compelling.

We might never know for sure, but the contributors to that site make an interesting case for Tatiana being the missing Grand Duchess. Maples was quite firm on it being Anastasia, so I tend to go with the findings of a renowned forensic anthropologist, at least until further evidence is revealed.

Thanks for sharing that very interesting site and for your comments on the anniversary of one of the saddest episodes in Russian history.

Best regards,

Doug Willingham
 

George Behe

Member
Dec 11, 1999
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Hi, Dr. Willingham!

Nice to see you here on ET! I hope your research on Major Butt has been going well since we last spoke together.

All my best,

George
 
Jun 8, 2002
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Hello, Mr. Behe!

I still can't believe that none of us knows the whereabouts of the Millet painting of Archie Butt! I remain in awe of the scholarship at ET and hope you or I or one of the scholars on this site will eventually hear about the dispensation of this painting--arguably the most important work of art connected to the disaster--given that both world-class artist and world-class political/social figure were not only aboard the "Titanic" but were, in fact, close friends traveling together.

Best regards,

Doug
 
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Andrew Harpending

Guest
Re: Allisons. Through the years Ive heard so many different descriptions of Allison's demeanor after their son got off the ship.
Lord has them standing, chatting and laughing.
Ken M. has them fantically searching for Trevor. Is there any proof that they did not know that he was in a boat? Ive also read that Mrs. Allison refused to get into a boat because she would not leave her husband. Is it all simply anecdotal? Thanks to all who might have insight, Andrew
 

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