The 3rd survivors

[Lau Yikwan]

Women & Children Men Total
First Class 94% 31% 60%
Second Class 81% 10% 44%
Third Class 47% 14% 25%
Crew 87% 22% 24%

These are the ratio of the survivors...
Was there really a gate to separate the 3rd passengers?!So that they couldn't get onto the deck...

If there was really a gate, apart from preventing the diseases from spreading...Were there other purposes separating the 3rd class passengers from others?!

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Was there really a gate to separate the 3rd passengers?!So that they couldn't get onto the deck... <<

No. The gate mentioned in testimony were the waist high gates at the top of the stairs leading from the welldecks to B-Deck. A 3rd class passenger who was pitched down by a crewman was able to easily vault right over it when he shot back up again.

The Bostwick gates shown in the movies in reality only existed in two places. The one up forward on E-deck by the 3rd class accomadation was flooded out early on and played no role in the story. The second one was located back aft by the stairs next to the potato washer space which is an area you would not normally expect to find passengers in.

If you have Powerpoint on your computer, you can go to

Titanic Symposium - Gates in 3rd Class

then click on Cathy's Powerpoint presentation below the photo on the left. It's one of the most thoroughly researched presentations I've ever seen on this matter.

 

[Lau Yikwan]

Thank you very much Michael!
This really help a lot

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Thank you very much Michael!<<

Not a problem. Cathy did an outstanding job with that article and knocked down quite a few myths.

 

[Joseph Tedesco]

I know this is an older post but, one thing Cathy didn't mention (or I missed it) was the mostly single men from the bow, who never made it to boats because of the length of time it took for them to find their way to the boats. I am referring to the "Fatal Journey."

And I don't think she explained, at least to my understanding, why it took so long to get the 3rd class W&C to the lifeboats from the 3rd class main stairway. The language barrier only goes so far, because they were all at the stairway for a reason. And when word came down to, "Pass the women and children up to the boat deck." (Walter Lord, The Night Lives On, pg 96) That "language" suggests that 3rd class were being prevented.

Steward John Hart "escorted" two groups up, but on the second group Lord states that, "things had taken an ugly turn" pg 113. The 3rd class men were now demanding to be let up. And Hart's own testimony "showed clearly that the men in steerage had been held back, and the women had what amounted to an hour's handicap to the boats." Hart at least lent credence to the claims of clear class distinction.

My whole take on this is that with an obvious, and well known fact that there were not enough lifeboat space for everyone, the steerage passengers were indeed held in check, though not overtly restricted so as to incite violence and greater chaos.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>one thing Cathy didn't mention (or I missed it) was the mostly single men from the bow, who never made it to boats because of the length of time it took for them to find their way to the boats. <<

In the context of her article, there was no reason to. The issue was not only one of whether or not the gates were locked but whether or not they were even there. The forward end of the ship was hardly relevant to that because it was flooded out...and as a consequence...evacuated very early on in the sinking.

 

[John Paul]

3rd class passengers were locked up to avoid the boat deck being crowded.

 

[Thomas William Goldsmith]

From my understanding and again I may be mistaken but what I have read and heard explained about this issue was that third class passengers were expected to be loaded from a lower hatchway. Since the crew had not had any lifeboat drills with the passengers, many did not know exactly what to do with or where to direct the passengers. Again this is just what I have read and what I have heard. My Grandfather only mentioned one gate and that was probably one of the ones Mike has explained. It was right before they went to the boat deck where the crew were seperating the women and children from the men. I hope this helps and doesn't lend itself to more confusion. Tragically as we all know, the lack of experience with the technical aspects of the lifeboats led the crew to lower them half full when they could have been lowered full. I have often wondered what the outcome would have been if the lifeboat drills scheduled for the 14th would have taken place instead of being cancelled due to it being too cold.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>3rd class passengers were locked up to avoid the boat deck being crowded.<<

No they weren't.

John, follow the links in my post dated February 13, 2008 above and read Cathy Akers-Jordon's Powerpoint presentation. She refuted that and a few other legends ages ago.

 

[Noel Coakley]

Mary Moynihan,who has contibuted to this message board, mentioned in another forum that her grandmother, Mary Kelly,came from Ballydehob Co. Cork.
However she is officially listed as being from Castlepollard, Co. Westmeath. Her ticket was indeed purchased in Ballydehob which is over 200 miles from her home in the midlands of Ireland and is in sequence with two tickets purchased from the same shipping agent by two Ballydehob natives, Bridget O'Driscoll and Annie (Nancy) Jermyn. All 3 young ladies were fortunate to survive, escaping on the last lifeboat launched. Here in Ballydehob we are hoping to commemorate the tragedy in April and we would appreciate your help in solving the mystery of Mary's grandmother's connection with our village.

 

[Tom Finn]

Noel - I am so happy to see your post. I am the great grandson of Mary Driscoll Finn (named Minnie) who went to the dock in New York to collect her first cousin, Bridget Driscoll, as we knew it, but I'll take your O'Driscoll. Bridget listed Minnie as the person to whom she was going in the manifest of the Carpathian. I just found out last night in another post on this site by Phil Gowan in the year 2001 that Bridget had actually been living here in the US and went back to Ballydehob to care for her dying mother. But her mother, Catherine, died before she got home. The story in our family is that Minnie brought a bottle of Hennessy to the dock to "persuade" the nice policeman to let her onto the dock to get to Bridget. I am extremely curious to know more about Bridget and her family (her father's name was John), and I would very much like to learn what you are doing in Ballydehob to mark the tragedy. do you have information on Bridget that you will include in the ceremony? I would love to hear from you directly at [email protected]. all the best, Tom Finn