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The Jack PhillipsHarold Bride picture

Discussion in 'John George Phillips Wireless Operator' started by Hydie Cheung, Jul 4, 2003.

  1. Hydie Cheung

    Hydie Cheung Guest

  2. The general consensus is that the man on the right is not Harold Bride. The man on the left is Jack (Father Francis Browne was the one who took this photo I believe...at least, it was in his collection, and he clearly indicates that the man on the left is Phillips, taken while Jack served on the Adriatic). Phillips and Bride did not serve on any prior ships together before Titanic.
  3. Hydie Cheung

    Hydie Cheung Guest

    Thanks for reminding, Kirtina! I have just checked out a book called The Last Days of TITANIC: Photographs and mementos of the tragic maiden voyage by Dr. Robert D. Ballard from the library yesterday. The book has shown a collection of Father Browne's pictures. Just saw the picture above and the description you told me. Thank you!

    - Hydie
  4. Lucky Forte

    Lucky Forte Guest

    Sure does look like Harold Bride to me. If you notice it appears to be a bit bright that day and phillips looks a little different than his famous portrait as does Harold Bride looks to his.
  5. Inger Sheil

    Inger Sheil Member

    Doesn't particularly look like Bride to me, even factoring in the weather conditions. As has been pointed out, not only does Father Browne's caption mitigate against it being Bride, but also the identification of the ship (the two men did not serve together on the Adriatic) and Bride's own testimony stating that he had not met Philips before they joined the Titanic. That's powerful evidence against it being Bride. Only 'pro' evidence thus far produced has been a percieved physical resemblance.
  6. Lucky Forte

    Lucky Forte Guest

    Well Inger ...you see the one thing that has me a believer is that Harold Bride has distinct lips as I have see in his famous photo and some VHS tapes on the story and aftermath following the incident that I have rented from the many libraries located in California and in the Tennessee areas. I wasn't talking weather as much as I was noticing the two squinting from the sun obviously. It seems that the one photo of him that is all over the web sites is the only one out there other than just a few that shows up as here and there such as this one. If anyone knows of a site that has more photo's of Harold Bride as a young man and any in his later years please let me know. Thanks.
  7. Inger, you left out 'wishful thinking' based on over romanticised notions of the Bride / Phillips Great Mateship (as perpertuated in some circles).

    Seriously though, this is another Titanic hydra - mythological and hard to kill even in the face of fact. I would think Father Browne knew on which ship he took the photo (and of whom). Here's the caption he wrote for that photo:
    While he doesn't identify the other Marconi operator, the facsimile album places the 'blurred' photo of Harold Bride at work in Titanic's radio room on the same page, and Harold Bride is identified as being in that photo. Had Harold been the other man in the Adriatic photo, why wouldn't've Father Browne identified him?

    However, even allowing for Father Browne muddling up his photographs, Bride didn't serve on Adriatic. He had been a Marconi operator since July 1911, serving on Haverford, Lusitania, Lanfranc (La France?) and Anselm. Further, we have Bride's testimony about not previously knowing Phillips, in his own words, at the US Senate enquiry:

    I've included the direct link so the full testimony can be read in context, including Bride's account of ships he'd previously served on.

    Lucky, I'm not sure where you'd find more photos of Harold Bride online. There's an unusual one (albeit a poor reproduction) on Inger and Jemma's site (http://www.nautical-papers.com/onwatch/) but having just looked at it I don't see that it helps regarding physical resemblance. Unlike you, I don't think the man in the Adriatic picture looks at all like the man pictured at the US Senate enquiry. However, you might like to check out Glen Dunstan's radio page, as he's got a reasonable section on Bride: http://www.hf.ro/

    Happy hunting,
  8. I had dinner with Harold Bride's nephew, Mr. George Sinclair, just a couple of weeks ago and we discussed, among other things, this very picture. The Bride family knows that this picture does not portray Harold Bride.

    In addition, I had a peek at some unpublished photos of Bride, some in his Marconi Co. uniform, cap and all. I could see for myself that the person in the Adriatic picture does not really resemble Bride at that time in his life.

    For those desiring to see the Bride family pictures, Mr. Sinclair will be publishing them in a work on Bride's life in the future.

  9. Inger Sheil

    Inger Sheil Member

    Cheers for putting those direct cites up, Fi! I agree with you that this seems to be another bit of romantic mythologising re. Bride and Philips that has taken root on the net. IMHO, people see Bride in that photo because they want to see Bride. It's not the first bit of spurious i.d.ing circulating around based on a perceived physical resemblance - the photos purporting to be the Titanic's officers circulating that in actual fact show the Olympic's officers is another example.
  10. Inger Sheil

    Inger Sheil Member

    Hallo Parks! I see our posts crossed. I meant to ask you if this particular photo came up during the dinner. Am glad you've helped settle this furphy once and for all...or at least, I hope you've settled it...these things have a habit of popping up again and again...
  11. Ing,

    Yes, that's why the subject came up in conversation. It's an interesting example of what the family of a famous person has to deal with. The Bride family, as you and Jemma know, have been extremely private where Harold is concerned, the result of which has had the unintended consequence of allowing some myths to grow unchecked around their relative. Mr. Sinclair is the first family member to have a desire to break the silence and share what the family has always known, if for no other reason other than to set the record straight. He has nothing sensational, mind you, that will alter the known history of the disaster, but the family's perspective on Bride's life will absolutely stun historians who have an interest in the man. For instance, Bride was rescued wearing his Marconi Co. uniform. He carried his personal effects in the uniform pockets. The uniform, along with his personal effects, came home with Harold. I find that to be utterly fascinating, although the average person might consider this to be minutiae.

  12. Allison Lane

    Allison Lane Guest

    Parks, you've got me really excited with mention of this forthcoming book on Bride. Do you have any more details on the publishing date, or the availability (i.e., could I get it here in the U.S.)?

    -Allison L.
  13. Allison,

    No, I don't. Mr. Sinclair has a publisher and has drawn his material together but the final format of the book has yet to be determined. I am in the same position with my planned book on the Marconi apparatus and telegraphy procedure. The reason for our dinner was to discuss the possibility of combining our efforts into one book. If this happens, Mr. Sinclair will abandon his original concept and I will abandon mine in favour of the new project. The details of this collaboration will be worked out over the coming months, so I can't add any more at this time.

    Mr. Sinclair's publisher is in the U.S.; in fact, it proved to be a happy coincidence that I live only a few miles from it.

  14. Lucky Forte

    Lucky Forte Guest

    The question is asked in the beginning post of what I think. I think the man in the picture is indeed Harold Bride because to me it looks like him...point blank. Not because I want it to be him as stated in the post above as I have nothing to gain by just wanting it to be him just for the sake of it. Unless you were there when the photo was taken it is just left to individual's opinion about it and that also goes for the initial meeting and/or if the two actually posed for the photo.
  15. Inger Sheil

    Inger Sheil Member

    If we leave the writing of history to 'individual opinion', and that opinion is based on subjective interpretation regarding our sources as opposed to where the weight of evidence lies, the study of history would be a shambles. It would be possible, for example to dismiss all the evidence regarding the Olympic photos of the Titanic's officers because of a subjective personal view on a supposed physical resemblance. Our assessment of historical sources, and our understanding of historical 'fact', is based upon where the weight of evidence lies and how we interpret it. In this instance, the material we have decidedly against this being Harold Bride. You have contemporary sources (the Browne caption, the fact the ship is the Adriatic and these men never served on it together, and Bride's own testimony re when he met Philips) and also contemporary comment from the family, who have access to a wider range of photographs.

    You state it is 'left to the individual's opinion' about when the initial meeting took place. Do you have any evidence that contravenes Bride's own statement as to when that first meeting took place? Do you have any suggestions as to why you believe Bride lied under oath? Beyond a perceived physical similarity between him and this man in the photo - a highly subjective interpretation that contradicts the extant data?

    I'd love to see your knowledge and expertise combined with the family's wealth of material, Parks - the result could be a very fruitful collaboration indeed. Btw - am dropping you an email re a bit of information I received about Bride from another source...want to see if you can confirm it, which in turn would help confirm the legitmacy of this source. It's very specific, and is a pretty straight yes/no answer. I can well understand why the family would like to set the record straight regarding Bride...rumours have been circulating for so long now (the whole recluse/disappearance thing, for exampe) and seem to have exploded with the advent of the internet and both the Movie and Musical.
  16. Lucky Forte

    Lucky Forte Guest

    Inger, With all due respect....There are just some things that no one will ever really know for sure. Opinion is just that and it is based only on lack of evidence and is therefore only speculation.
  17. Lucky Forte

    Lucky Forte Guest

    P.S. I am not a member of a debate team and am old enough to come to my own conclusions unless evidence is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
  18. Lucky,

    Your opinion runs counter to that of Bride's own family, including Harold's own sister. If you're comfortable with that, then good luck to you.

  19. Inger Sheil

    Inger Sheil Member

    Sorry Lucky - an opinion based on flimsy or flawed evidence, as opposed to one based on more substantive material, is not worth the ink it's penned with or the bandwith it takes up. The view that this is not Bride is not based on 'lack of evidence' - it is based on evidence - the captioning by Brown, and a categoric statement by Bride himself. Unless, as I say, you think he lied under oath, for no discernable motive you have produced, and with no evidence to back up this insinuation that he lied? This particular furphy has unfortunately gained widespread currency, so needs to be tackled. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But not all opinions are equal. I prefer to draw my conclusions based on where the bulk of the historical evidence lies - particularly when it is contradicted by nothing more than a subjective interpretation of a visual source that is belied by other sources.
  20. "Lucky,"

    You've been critical of the reasons given by those who think that the person in the Adriatic photo is not Bride. Would you care to share the reason(s) why you so passionately believe he is?

    Would this have anything to do with Lucy Bride?