The Mount Temple


May 3, 2005
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I've been following this thread and I can sympathize with the posters. I have run into the same problem with another author on another book. It seems once they have made up their mind, they just can't stand criticism about any of the negative points of their book. Good luck. I'm going back into the lurking and observing mode. Thanks for letting me in.
 

Scott Mills

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Robert,

Having now read most of Senan's book, it seems impossible that Mount Temple would not be high up on the list of contenders for the "mystery ship." In fact, I have come within an inch of starting to be convinced (frankly it is a hell of a lot more convincing to me than the Californian ever was.)

And contrary to what others have said, some of the first accusations and news reports--which were surprisingly accurate--came before "the details of the disaster were known." Not to mention, the book can, in no way, be characterized as a fictionalization. That's just a lie--you would have people believe this book is a novel that makes up dialogue of those on the Mount Temple or something similar?

The rocket issue: I find it telling that some of the reports from Mount Temple passengers and crew mention Titanic firing colored lights--something that we have just taken Boxhall's word about (that only white rockets were fired) for nearly a hundred years. Taking into account passenger recollection, and the location of colored rockets in the debris field, I think we can pretty much admit colored rockets were fired from the deck of Titanic.

I also find it interesting that the master of the Almerian also reported seeing these rockets, while a four mast one funnel steamer who morse lamped "ount" to her, and was later identified as the Mount Temple lay between her and the rockets. At the very least, this ought to prove that Moore was lying about not seeing any rockets of any kind.

Finally, Moore's excuse about his lines ice policy makes no sense at all. He waves around this policy that he cannot take his ship into any ice whatsoever, no matter what the purpose, after he has already talked about steaming his ship through ice trying to answer Titanic's distress.

Jake: re sailor stories

I suppose this could very well be the case, but would they really charge the crew for obeying the Masters command on the vessel? But, it would make some sense... it is telling that there are NO family stories at all as well. I can promise you my grandfather would have told the story many times had he been chief engineer on a vessel in the area of Titanic that night--even if his ship were too far away to give aid.

At the same time though, my grandpa did tell me many stories he wasn't suppose to--chiefly about the bikini tests. He also told me about being locked in his room and being threatened with a court martial... which isn't exactly flattering.

But most importantly he never passed up the opportunity to tell me about how his captain nearly got his fleet tug sunk during d-day by navigating into a very clearly seen German hazard, which fouled their prop. Then how the captain froze, and my grandfather had to formulate a repair and implement it why the captain just stared into the distance (and German 88s were ranging their boat so shells were landing all around them.) He would then complain that his Captain was given a bronze star for something my grandfather did while the captain was in shock.

So it seems to me the officers of Mount Temple might have told a similar story about Moore to their families--particularly long after they left the sea--if the accusations against Mount Temple were true. Then again, we are dealing with human beings who died between 50 and 70 years ago. If such stories did exist--and Senan mentions one--their details might have been long forgotten.

*edit

I wanted to add here that the "two masted one funneled steamer" almost has to be the Almerian. Essentially this ship admits to being there (she didn't have a wireless) on the night of the 15th, is identified as a Leyland liner by Lord at the time, and is spotted by 3 ships Mount Temple, Carpathia, and Californian. The only way Moore's "black funneled" ship, a ship with a black funnel as he described never being located despite titanic efforts to do so, would not be the Almerian would be that it was a ship that he, and he alone, spotted--despite all of the other ships racing to the scene during the evening of the 14th and the morning of the 15th.

Moore's report about the schooner is also very strange as no other ship sees one in the area--none at all. Furthermore, his testimony during the US Senate inquiry has this schooner doing some very strange things, like maliciously coming at him, in the dark and in an ice filled sea, the using its foghorn at the last possible moment such that Mount Temple has to take evasive action and run her engines in full reverse--which in and of itself makes Moore's positions and time table impossible.
 

Jake Peterson

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Mar 11, 2012
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Jake: re sailor stories

I suppose this could very well be the case, but would they really charge the crew for obeying the Masters command on the vessel? But, it would make some sense... it is telling that there are NO family stories at all as well. I can promise you my grandfather would have told the story many times had he been chief engineer on a vessel in the area of Titanic that night--even if his ship were too far away to give aid.

At the same time though, my grandpa did tell me many stories he wasn't suppose to--chiefly about the bikini tests. He also told me about being locked in his room and being threatened with a court martial... which isn't exactly flattering.

But most importantly he never passed up the opportunity to tell me about how his captain nearly got his fleet tug sunk during d-day by navigating into a very clearly seen German hazard, which fouled their prop. Then how the captain froze, and my grandfather had to formulate a repair and implement it why the captain just stared into the distance (and German 88s were ranging their boat so shells were landing all around them.) He would then complain that his Captain was given a bronze star for something my grandfather did while the captain was in shock.

So it seems to me the officers of Mount Temple might have told a similar story about Moore to their families--particularly long after they left the sea--if the accusations against Mount Temple were true. Then again, we are dealing with human beings who died between 50 and 70 years ago. If such stories did exist--and Senan mentions one--their details might have been long forgotten.

Good point. I also just thought of this: Many of us here are descendants of Titanic survivors and victims. There are also some of us here that are descendants of Ismay, Pirrie, and the 14,000-15,000 workers at the Belfast shipyards. Some of the families have been so kind as to post here, or publish books about the folklore/legends that have been passed down from those aforementioned survivors and shipbuilders.


Where are the descendants of the passengers of the alleged 36 other ships in the region? Why haven't they come out with books, or news interviews? Surely the Californian and Mt. Temple crew and their descendants couldn't be the ONLY ones still talking about "being in the area of the Titanic when it sank"?
 

John Flood

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Mar 4, 2002
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The kicker, at the time, and the erie part when I think on Frank Preatince's claim his mate paddled off to never be seen again, was these Mount Temple passengers claimed that 3 of Mount Temple's boats were launched and a single surviving member of the crew was resued.

They then say the guy disappeared when he got onboard and was never seen, at least by the passengers, again.

There is in all probability nothing in this, but the thought of it did give me the chills reading through this thread.

I've never heard of this incident before, is there any more info. about it?
 

Scott Mills

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I've never heard of this incident before, is there any more info. about it?

John,

Sorry. Obviously hadn't checked this thread in a long while. More information about which? Preatince's story or the "witness" claim to have picked up a Titanic crew member by mt temple?

I will try to track down both for you. In the meantime, just google Preatince and BBC. There is an interview by him given in 1980 detailing this story. The "witness" I believe was a man who turned up with his daughter at a news paper to give his story a couple days after Mt Temples arrival in port. He was, irrc, on Mt Temples manifest. Seanen's book discusses this in detail.

I will try to get back to you with concrete links later, sadly I am typing this on my phone, making it next to impossible to do now.
 

Cam Houseman

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Jul 14, 2020
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Hi!
So from the PBS Documentary "Secrets of the Dead" Titanic episode, the documentary implied the Mount Temple was the mysterious light on the horizon. Could this be? Now, I don't know a lot about this subject, but iI'm eager to have my part in it.
Found a map of the ships in Titanic's area on google
1607004018452.png

to me it seems that the Parisian was closer, but we'll discuss that later.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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So from the PBS Documentary "Secrets of the Dead" Titanic episode, the documentary implied the Mount Temple was the mysterious light on the horizon. Could this be?
That was the intent of that doco, Cam. It was a one-sided, highly flawed story, intended to shift blame away from Californian for failure to go to the aid of Titanic, and to put that blame onto Mount Temple.
 
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Jun 7, 2020
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Hello Cam, hello Samuel,

I do not know very much about that topic... However, how do we know the Californian's logbook was thrown overboard ? Did a crewmember said something about that ? Or is it just an assumption as it was never found after the sinking ?

Thank you !
Merry Christmas ! Stay safe.

Manon
 
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Jim Currie

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Hello Cam, hello Samuel,

I do not know very much about that topic... However, how do we know the Californian's logbook was thrown overboard ? Did a crewmember said something about that ? Or is it just an assumption as it was never found after the sinking ?

Thank you !
Merry Christmas ! Stay safe.

Manon
Hello Manon,

Californian's Log Book was not thrown over the side. it was produced at the Inquiries on both sides of the Atlantic.
In fact. it was normal pratice to keep a Scrap log on the bridge.
Every morning, the Chief Officer would copy the previous day's notations from the Scrap Log into the Official Log Book. Having done so, he would tear out the page from the Scrap Log and put it in his waste basket. This was normal practice and in keeping with Company Rules and nothing to do with hiding evidence.
In later years, th Scrap Log was replaced by the "Deck Log" which was kept and its contents were used in legal cases in preference to the Official Log Book which became known as the Mate's |Abstracts.
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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Read the evidence for yourself folks. This comes the testimony of Californian's Chief Officer Stewart:
8658. It is your business to write up the logbook from the scrap log? - Yes.
8659. Who keeps the scrap logbook, and where is it kept? - It is just kept for the day, that is all.
8660. I am not sure that I understand. You do not mean there is a new scrap logbook for every day? - It is all bits that are torn out and destroyed. The logbook is written up every day and the officer signs it.
8661. Do you mean that at the end of the day when you have written up your log from the scrap logbook, you tear out the page of the scrap logbook and destroy it? - Yes.
8662. (The Commissioner.) Day by day? - Yes.
8663. (The Solicitor-General.) Are you quite sure of that? - Yes.
8664. That was the practice, was it, on this ship? - Yes.
8665. Now let me tell you at once why I press you about this. While you have been out of this room we have had in that box the Third Officer, and I have been asking the Third Officer why he did not turn back in the scrap logbook and read what was written for the previous day. He did not suggest to me that it would probably be torn out you know. Now do you suggest it is torn out day by day? - Yes.
8666. Always? - Always.
8667. (The Commissioner.) Is it a book with a back to it? - No, it is only a small book with a paper back.
8668. Never mind; it is a book with a back to it. Is it the size of a penny memorandum book? - It is about that wide and that long.(demonstrating.)
8669. It is a sort of diary - something like a diary? - Yes.
8670. And it is bound in a paper cover? - Yes.
8671. So that if you wanted to do so you would have to tear out each page and throw it away? - Yes, cut it out with a knife about a quarter of an inch from where the book is sewn into the cover.
8672. (The Solicitor-General.) Why do you do that? - Because we only keep the one log.
8673. But why? - By the company’s instructions.
8674. (The Commissioner.) I never heard of this. Are you instructed by your owners to destroy the scrap log as the voyage goes along? - Yes, my Lord.
8675. (The Solicitor-General.) Day by day? - Yes

Now for more relevant part:
 
Mar 22, 2003
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8733. (The Solicitor-General.) The scrap logbook is intended to be kept at the time, is it not, as the things happen? - Yes, Sir, but they generally write them up at the end of the watch.
8734. And you were there at 4 o’clock at the end of the watch? - Yes.
8735. And Mr. Stone told you then at 4 o’clock that he had seen these signals? - Yes.
8736. (The Commissioner.) And they had been sending messages to the Captain about them? - Yes.
8737. (The Solicitor-General.) Three times? - Yes.
8738. And you were just going to take over the ship for the next watch and take charge of this same sheet of paper? - Yes.
8739. Did not it occur to you that it was odd that there was nothing entered on the scrap logbook? - I did not notice the scrap logbook at that time.
8740. You did not notice it? - No.
8741. You made entries on the same sheet of paper between four and eight o’clock, did not you? - Not till eight o’clock.
8742. At eight then? - Yes.
8743. Did not you notice it then? - I noticed there was nothing on it then.
8744. But by that time you had had the message that the “Titanic” had sunk? - Yes.
8745. Did not you notice it then? - I noticed there was nothing there.
8746. You did notice it? - Yes.
8747. Then you did at eight o’clock notice there was nothing in the scrap logbook about what had happened between midnight and four? - Yes.
8748. And you have told us, in your view, it would be right to make such entries? - Yes.
8749. Did you ever speak to the Second Officer about it? - No.
8750. Never? - No.
8751. (The Commissioner.) Or to the Captain? - No.
8752. Or to anybody? - No, my Lord.
8753. (The Solicitor-General.) This piece of paper, whatever it was in the scrap logbook for 15th April, would be used until midnight on the 15th, would not it? - Yes.
 
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