The mystery ship as seen from the Carpathia

>>Don't NIGHT Rules 1 and 3 clearly indicate Titanic's firing of rockets was not in accordance with accepted rules? I would think so.<<

No they don't. Please take a moment to read the whole of what I posted, noting in particular "Rockets or shells, throwing stars of any color or description, fired one at a time at short intervals." The Titanic was within the rules.

>>"... and think for yourself."

I am doing just that.<<

With all due respect, what you're doing is regurgitating the legend, not the reality. You've been offered some links to primary source material as well as some research done by people who actually know the ground. You would do well to read it.
 
A short interval is NOT every 4-6 minutes. A minute would be the upper limit in my mind, or at least immediately after the previous rocket died out. Given the rules of the sea as they existed just prior to April, 1912, I would not consider the rockets fired by Titanic to have been distress rockets.

Regardless of color, did not Titanic also have more rockets in inventory? Why were they being fired at such a slow rate?

I am so glad that in this forum there are posters who know ALL the answers, especially in myopic hindsight. To you and them I write, OTHER EXPLANATIONS EXIST, even if you and they lack the ability to comprehend them. With so many unknowns, your capacity to make absolute deterministic conclusions is simply astounding. I'm perplexed that book publishers haven't rush to your doorstep with million dollar advances.
 
I tend to agree that Titanic's officers did a poor job of firing the signals. Somebody should have been assigned the task and kept at it as long as signals lasted. (They had 36, plus 12 ordinary rockets). I don't think this is hindsight. The task was too vital to be interrupted by helping with lifeboats, as Boxhall did. Also, the firing ended when Boxhall and Rowe left the ship. Why?

"Short intervals" is a vague term, as was common in the regulations of the time. In practical terms, an interval of two or three minutes could have been used. After firing a signal, it was necessary to be sure the socket was free of smouldering debris, before putting in a new charge and detonator.

Whatever the faults on Titanic, Stone's cluelessness is obvious. If he didn't understand what he was seeing, he had two options, one of which I have only seen David Brown mention. He could have insisted Lord came on deck, if only to cover his own backside. Beside that, he could have first sent Gibson for the signal book and checked out possible signals. He would soon have eliminated company signals, as none used multiple white rockets and none lasted more than a couple of minutes. That leaves distress signals.

I have just a little sympathy for Lord, who was saddled with a goose, but the captain is ultimately responsible for whatever happens on his ship. Lord was at least casual and apathetic. When I'm really in a bad mood, I suspect he vaguely knew somebody was in trouble and consciously or unconsciously didn't want to get involved. It happens every day.

And don't drag in more ships. This has gone on since 1912 without any third or fourth ship being produced. In any case, if more ships were on the scene, they must have had captains and crew even dumber than Stone, as they were supposedly even nearer to Titanic than Californian was.
 
>>I am so glad that in this forum there are posters who know ALL the answers, especially in myopic hindsight.<<

First, lose the attitude. Nobody has made any such claim, and debator's rheotoric like that don't make your case.

>>To you and them I write, OTHER EXPLANATIONS EXIST, even if you and they lack the ability to comprehend them.<<

We know that. We've also seen quite a few of those explainations nuked by way of careful research. Some of us have...such as Dave Gittins, Samuel Halpern, and Dr. Lee...have even done the homework. A lot of homework.

>>With so many unknowns, your capacity to make absolute deterministic conclusions is simply astounding.<<

However, in this instance, it's the facts which are known which are at the core of the matter. They saw the rockets and were close enough to see the flash of one of the signals being fired from the Titanic's decks. They should have done more about it then just look and speculate. Unfortunately, look and speculate is about all they really did.

Let's be clear about something: I'm not hostile to the mystery ship proposition. There could have been one, a dozen or the whole bloody Grand Fleet operating there for all I know. The problem here is that:

a) The supporting evidence is sketchy and easily explained away and

b) It doesn't take away even a jot of the Californian's accountability in this issue. The rockets they saw are a fact, not a suppostion, and even in testimony, Stone admitted that a ship doesn't fire rockets for nothing. This is also a matter of documented fact. It doesn't go away and can't be talked away. He certainly should have acted more proactively then he did and failed miserably to do so.

Where Captain Lord get's tripped up is that as the master of the vessel, he bears the ultimate responsibility for everything that occured. Even if he is not culpably responsible, he still has the obligation to identify problem areas in his command and clean up the mess. His attempt to cover it up by lying to the media when the story broke in Boston didn't help him in the least.
 
Welcome,

Welcome to the most contentious issue of the whole Titanic discussion forum. I admire your willingness to debate, and your courage in taking up the cudgel on behalf of the officers of the Californian.

I was once like you, y’know. It seemed impossible to me that a professional seaman with the years of experience of Stanley Lord would willingly stand-by and watch the world’s largest passenger vessel sink.

And of course, it is. No-one would do that.

For years I believed that Lord and his men were unfairly blamed for taking no action, that some other ship lay between them and the stricken liner, mysterious and un-named, and confusing to all observers that night.

However, what I learned both from reading many, many books on the subject and from the wise men and women on this very site is that the problem is not whether Captain Lord and the wretched Stone and Gibson ignored the distress of the Titanic — but whether Stone, Gibson and Lord were capable of realizing that the worst shipping disaster was actually happening a few miles away from them. Whether they had the necessary skills, abilities and intelligence not just as seamen but as ordinary fallible human beings to interpret what they were seeing, in Stone and Gibson’s case, or being told, in Lord’s.

My own belief is that a combination of exhaustion, lack of imagination, and an undue, but typical of the time, deference to the voice of authority on the part of the junior officers led to a genuine failure to communicate — first between the Titanic and the Californian, then between the bridge-crew and commander of the latter. Now, you might still believe that Lord and his men are thus unduly heaped with opprobrium for what was an error terrible in its magnitude but understandable in its context, and I would agree with you.

But where I have problems, and I invite you to consider this yourself, is the behaviour of the officers of the Californian after they discover the Titanic had sunk.

Even if there was a ship lying between the two ships that night, as you hold, by the morning after they must surely have realized that on the night when something terrible and strange had happened they had been in proximity to — well - something very strange and possibly terrible happening. To whit — a ship firing off rockets.

So surely at some point each of them must have considered the possibility that their “stranger” was the Titanic ? But right from the word go, and Paul Lee shows this very nicely in his work, Lord plays down the possibility- even before its put to him ! Stone spends the rest of his life refusing to discuss it, Lord also avoids the subject until he thinks its safe to re-emerge forty-five years later and tell his tales without anyone challenging them, and on the whole they come over as men with something — well, if not to hide, then in possession of some knowledge that makes them very uncomfortable. Perhaps simply the knowledge that they failed to respond.

So whilst anyone could, possibly, have repeated their errors that night, their subsequent behaviour from the moment they realize Titanic doesn’t reflect well on them, and simply raises the question of what they felt they had to hide. Add to that their own testimonies — and be clear here that the evidence that condemns emerges only from the mouths of the men themselves — and I’m afraid that even with another ship there, one cannot remove Californian.

Best wishes

Dave Moran
 
I do not hold to the super-refraction theory, although I do not discount it entirely. Not only do I believe there was a mystery ship, I feel there were TWO of them between Titanic and Californian. Each vessel saw their own respective ghost ship. I hold the distance between Titanic was no less than 17 miles and no more than 22 miles.

I doubt if anyone here has actually placed himself in what it was like to be living in Europe during April, 1912. War was looming. Emigrants were abandoning the Continent in droves. Ask yourself why? What other economic or political conditions prevailed on the Continent? What other forces were at work that affected the seas and shipping?

I've read the mystery ship was thought to be a fishing vessel and/or a Norwegian whaler. I know from my study of WWI that Germany was already importing arms, munitions and matériel from multiple sources, and I'll bet the mystery ship(s) were contraband carriers.

The last thing the Germans would want would be to have one of their surreptitious carriers involved in a rescue. Their cargo, if made known, would have wide repercussions and become more of a headline than the sinking. Discovery would tip their hand. What's the loss of 1500 souls compared to what war involves? The need for secrecy was paramount.

I claim it was the Germans, but I also hold out the possibility of some other nation may have been involved. War does not happen overnight.

I readily admit what I have written above is pure speculation, just one of several possibilities for the mystery ship(s). I offer it only because it makes the best fit for what I understand to be the known facts at that time.
 
I've read the mystery ship was thought to be a fishing vessel and/or a Norwegian whaler.

You're thinking of the Samson, which was a whaling vessel. But, according to her log she was no where near Titanic, so that theory has been proven to be false.
 
The last thing the Germans would want would be to have one of their surreptitious carriers involved in a rescue. Their cargo, if made known, would have wide repercussions and become more of a headline than the sinking. Discovery would tip their hand. What's the loss of 1500 souls compared to what war involves? The need for secrecy was paramount.
Sounds like the material for a novel or a Twilight Zone episode. Maybe Spielberg may want it for a blockbuster flick.
 
Whoa! Knute, she's a rearing!

Not only one mystery ship, but two. And, they're carrying "contraband" for a war that was two years in the future. Sorry, but the term contraband only applies under wartime rules of blockade and embargo. Germany was openly purchasing arms, ships, and even seagull guano as part of the arms race with Great Britain and France. A merchant ship carrying military goods in 1912 had nothing to fear from responding to another vessel in distress. There was no war!

To me, the what the Californian saw was a duck: it looked like a duck, waddled like a duck, and quacked like a duck -- that is, it looked like a ship that stopped for no reason, it looked like a ship firing rockets, and an officer of Californian perceived that vessel (quack) was apparently in distress.

As to what those in Titanic saw looking toward Californian, well that's a bird of a decidedly different feather. Claims by seamen and passengers of seeing a ship "out there" seem too honestly made to be disregarded. Still, humans have a way of seeing that what does not exist if visualization feeds hope. Men dying of thirst on liferafts often report seeing islands with waving palms in areas of the ocean populated only by gooney birds and sharks. Hope can turn a star into a sidelight, or two stars into masthead lights.

As to mystery ships...the Cowes Week fleet could have been between Californian and Titanic that night. So what? All that matters is that two officers in Californian saw and accurately reported events occurring simultaneously on Titanic. Those officers failed to properly communicate what they saw to Captain Lord, who for his part failed to resolve the confusion presented to him.

This Hud-like failure to communicate may be the result of the individual personalities of the men involved. However, it was certainly exacerbated by the stratification of British society. Remember, in Titanic the lookouts said they would never have reported that "haze" because doing so would have presumed the officer of the watch was effectively incompetent to see the obvious for himself. Or, consider that Third Officer Pitman's unequivocal "I did not" response when asked if he discussed ice with Captain Smith. Pitman explained, "It was not my place to talk with the captain about such things."

Could there have been another vessel between Californian and Titanic? Damned right there could have been. There were more ships at sea in 1912 than today. And, a fair number were pure sailing vessels. In the "oily calm" at the time of Titanic's accident, however, a barque or brig with a deckload of lifeboats would have been unable to do anything but watch the fireworks. You can't sail anywhere if the wind isn't blowing. By morning, the number of steamers at the scene would have told any windjammer captain to keep out of the way.

But, the possibility of a windship between Californian and Titanic does not prove that one actually existed in that location. If you don't hear a quack...see feathers...hear the beat of wings...there's probably not a duck out there in the dark. It's just your over-active imagination.

--Quack!--

-- David G. Brown
 
>>I hold the distance between Titanic was no less than 17 miles and no more than 22 miles.<<

Based on what verifiable facts?

>>I doubt if anyone here has actually placed himself in what it was like to be living in Europe during April, 1912. War was looming. Emigrants were abandoning the Continent in droves. Ask yourself why? What other economic or political conditions prevailed on the Continent? What other forces were at work that affected the seas and shipping?<<

R.J., this is simply a non sequiter. Nothing here has anything to do with what was happening on this particular spot of the North Atlantic that night. In any event, there would be no need for any covert carriers since there was no war on and no embargo. They could import anything the like, do it openly, and they did. There was no need for any sort of skullduggery.

>>I've read the mystery ship was thought to be a fishing vessel and/or a Norwegian whaler.<<

Actually, she was a sealing ship (Not a whaling vessel) and at best capable of doing only six knots. Tax records show that she was in Isafjordhur iceland on April 6, and again on April 20. There is just no way she could have covered the over 3000 mile round trip in that time frame and still be on the scene of the sinking.
 
I can't say much, but I'm involved in a planned book that is based on the 'third ship'. I'll only say that the third ship was a freighter that was up to no good and left Titanic to sink. The author makes it quite clear that it's fiction. I hope the book is published in due course.
 
Just my .02 cents. If there was a mystery ship between Titanic and California, I doubt it was shipping illegal arms to Germany. Germany, being one of the most industrialised countries in the world hardly needed to import armaments, I'm sure they were capable to have produced more than enough themselves, Krupps et al.

I think too much emphasis is put on the drift to war, in the early twentieth century, and as a result, bizarre theories involving dastardly Germans, have cropped up, on this site, from time to time. When you look back now you can see the various stepping stones to war,that would break out in August 1914...but was this as obvious back in 1912? Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
 
Actually RJ, what a lot of folks don’t realize is that the traffic in emigrants was two-way.

A lot of the emigrants from the Continent were casual labourers who traveled to the New World for work in the winter months after the harvests were in on the European continent, made some money then returned home in the spring for work in Europe again. There was no mass of exodus, no flight of mankind away from the forthcoming war — it was simple movement of labour to where the work was.

There was also a fairly constant stream of people returning to “The Old Country” because they hadn’t found America the land of milk and opportunity that it tends to get presented as in films about the immigrant experience — say, The Godfather or the wroks of DW Griffith at the time. The huge liners and small scud-boats that benefited from the trade going west didn’t go back east with empty passenger lists — there were a good many people, dispirited and fed up, who went back home to what they were comfortable with.

There was also the huge pull of the booming economy of Europe. We all know about the dreadnought race, the super-liner race and the expanding military-industrial complex in Europe — but we mustn’t forget that this generated huge numbers of jobs for labourers both skilled and casual. The German economy, as you may know given your studies, was locked into repetitive cycles of boom’n’bust between the turn of the century and the summer of 1914 — so folks that had left at the bottom of the economic cycle returned when it was on an upswing.

Consider another matter — who are the Germans you posit on the Atlantic that night smuggling the arms to ? Americans ? The Germans consider the Americans as so remote that they never figure them into their war plans before the outbreak of the war. Their own fleet is aimed, if it’s aimed anywhere, at the British — but the Americans are ignored. There is even the possibility that the American’s might be pro-German.

The British ? Well, yes, there is Canada — but there is hardly a pro-German/anti-British element in Canadian politics. The Canadians in 1912 are toying with the idea of supplying funds for Britain to but a couple of dreadnoughts. Besides which, German policy between roughly 1906 and 1913 is to try to woo Britain away from her Entente partners, Russia and France, and into an alliance with Germany. April 1912 has just seen the collapse of the Haldane mission in which such a possible alliance was first attempted to be defined in writing. Smuggling arms would be very foolish, very damaging to German prestige and frankly a waste of resources.

No - I think you are on a hiding to nothing there, I'm afraid. There is no reason to smuggle guns, and no-one to smuggle them to.
 
For WW1 buffs, here's a good site.
http://fidnet.com/~weid/ww1.html#titanic

It encapsulates history, of course, but there are many primary reference sources. Titanic is mentioned, but only as an ancillary interest of the times, so nobody really seems to think there is any connection. And why should there be after all? Colliding with icebergs, dodgy radio communications, unidentified ships etc., seem fairly likely for 1912.

I quite enjoy conspiracy theories as a source of entertainment, but on closer examination they nearly always seem sadly hopeless. It's always the same thing. Someone uses modern knowledge or technology to project actions or meanings onto people who couldn't possibly have known / done such things at the time.

The most likely explanation for the Californian 'evidence' is that they realised they had bungled, and wanted to diminish it for career reasons which affected them all. Who knows who else also bungled? Maybe several others in the vicinity got the message too late or not at all, or were blocked by ice-fields, or realised that they were too small to help?
 
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