The mystery ship as seen from the Carpathia

>>D'oh! Of course she was, I knew that. Thanks, Mike.<<

No problem. We all have "senior moments" even when we're not senior citizens.

Monica, I went ahead and bookmarked that website. Looks like there's a lot of good stuff there.

>>Maybe several others in the vicinity got the message too late or not at all, or were blocked by ice-fields, or realised that they were too small to help?<<

How about all of the above, minus the message. Wireless was spreading fast, but it wasn't everywhere and as David pointed out, any sailing vessel would have been dead in the water with no wind, and regarded as in the way in the morning when the wind picked up.
 
Ah well now, it's my turn.
On 12th. September, Dr. Paul Lee posed a question about the mystery ship. Well! here's one for you. Independent of Paul and without his knowledge and me seeing the posting referred to; I carried -out some investigation myself. First, I constructed a Meractor chart. Then, using the data provided in the enquiries, plotted all the known and supposed players. I did not speculate, nor believe sensational newspaper reports nor third hand stories from a relative of a ship's cat that was there (though asleep at the time). No! I used years of hands-on experience - not only of sailing in passenger ships on the self same route but of having used the same navigation instruments, equipment and methods as those in use at the time. OK! I did indulge in a bit of guess-work but let me say here and now - I don't regard myself as an expert by any means - just an old, simple sailorman! My work does not speculate as to the skills of the men involved. I take them, as I would hope others take me- at face value. I would never, as I have seen in these postings - think myself to be so superior that I was able to pour scorn on any of the players.
My work actually compliments Paul's in that I too firmly believe there was a a ship stopped to the south of 'Californian' and another stopped to the north of 'Mount Temple'. Plotting the DR position of 'Carpathia' for 0315 hrs on the morning of the 15th puts her 9 miles from where she met Boxhall. From this position, two points on the starboard bow bears about 332T - the bearing of 'Californian' at her given position.
If right then she would be 32 miles away at that time. Obviously at this range, even with super refraction, this was not the mystery ship. Elsewhere it has been suggested that 'Californian' was on a NW-SE position line from 'Titanic'. If she was then 'Carpathia's' mystery ship could not have been 'California'. Who was it then?
At the time in question, it wasn't just the big fancy liners who used these GC routes. Nearly all other ships running between European and N. American ports also used them. Additionally - it was the time of the great transition at sea - transition between sail and power, transition between wireless and visual signals. It was also still the time of single owner ships who, in many cases , wrote their own rules. For all the pontificators and scorn casters herein, it must be very hard to grasp the facts that although probably much higher skilled than most of the 'armchar' sailors of today; these men were actually quite simple. They believed people, even trusted them. The captain was 'god' with a small 'g'. However, I diverse:
My firm belief is that there was another ship where Capt. Lord and his officers saw it. It had no radio. It was on the line of sight as I have described but nearer 'Titanic' hence being seen from 'Carpathia'. It stopped for a while because of the ice then decided to try to go through it. The method it chose was to move slowly south and west - probing all the time, looking for a way through the pack. While doing so it fired-off a few white rockets - much as gunners fire off star shell- to see if it could determine a way through the ice. It did this in a SW direction - showing its stern to Lord until it eventually disappeared. This would explain why some of the rockets were seen away to the SW.
Incidentally, if 'Californian was on a PL of NW-SE from 'Titanic' then she must have been beside the offending berg to have seen 'Titanic's' steaming lights at 2300hrs or earlier when she was still 16+ miles away.
 
Jim, I think something David Brown said earlier in this thread really sums it up:
As to mystery ships...the Cowes Week fleet could have been between Californian and Titanic that night. So what? All that matters is that two officers in Californian saw and accurately reported events occurring simultaneously on Titanic. Those officers failed to properly communicate what they saw to Captain Lord, who for his part failed to resolve the confusion presented to him.
He's got a point and it dovetails with something I've been saying for years.

The whole of the U.S. 6th Fleet could have been timewarped back there and been holding combat drills and it would still make no difference here. The issue here is what the Californian saw and how they reacted or failed to react to it.

As to rockets, (Socket signals actually) the only ship firing any such at the time was the Titanic. Had another ship been firing rockets or socket signals of any kind as you assert, the people on the Titanic would have seen them, and the survivors who were around who saw what was going on would have reported it.

They didn't because there was nothing to report.

As to Dr. Lee's work, I haven't got around to buying my copy as yet but I know what's been reported about it. Far from affirming the presence of a "mystery ship" in between, he actually refutes it.
 
Jim, you might like to look at my comments on Carpathia, especially the bit at the bottom about her mystery ship.

Carpathia: Legends and Reality

The ship is indeed a mystery, but I think I've shown that she's irrelevant to the Californian affair. There's very little about her. Just Rostron's account in Mersey's court. Her crew's silence is a mystery.

For other readers, I believe Jim is a master mariner, with qualifications equivalent to the old Extra Master. Let's hope he sticks around!
 
Hi Dave!
I read what you have written. However I disagree on a few points - nothing to do with maths or any of the nav process. I have actually done my own work on this , constructing a mercator chart etc.
I think Rostron was a bit of a 'plonker'. Sorry! I do believe he was one of the world's lucky people you know the ones! (bucket of s... and diamonds come to mind). It was this luck that he exploited throughout his life which saved the 'Titanic' people. He had the luck to write his own scrip (no one else got a look-in - even had copy ready for those who wanted it). The luck to dash through ice infested waters in a ship full of passengers, relying on bad navigation, firing off rockets etc. The luck to fudge his figures when they didn't ad-up. The luck not to be questioned on them etc. Bottom line is if Rostron had had Smith's luck we would now be discussing two massive disasters involving loss of over 3000 lives.
I still think that mystery ship of his was there. I also think it was probing the ice - possibly as I suggested using rockets but later after Titanic sank. My plot places her on a position line between 'Californian's reported position and Titanic at 0315 on the morning of the 15th - about an hour before Rostron picked-up Boxhall. I also calculate there was a 1.3 knot current running. Although Boxhall would be having problems rowing, desperation would lend strength. He would have been rowing in a south west trending curve to meet Carpathia whose lights he had spotted. Even if could not row well, he would have been about 2.25 miles south of the sinking point at 0415. A little rowing assistance would put him another 2.5 miles south and west.
I also think Carpathia took a wide turn to port when she reversed her course for the CDQ. My plot places her about 3 miles to the NE of where she should have been when she met-up with Boxhall. I think she took the wide turn while all the position verification work was being done.
I don't think that Lord was anything other than a sound, solid seaman who had no experience of Arctic ice but who followed normal procedure when encountering pack ice. It has been suggested that he and others like him were less qualified than some of the other players. I think that's rubbish! The BOT exams were exactly the same whoever sat them They were the highest marine qualification on the surface of the planet at that time. A Master or Extra Master's certificate was the same whatever vessel was sailed on. Extra Master was not all that difficult. A bit more theory and more detailed mathematics but that was all. Captain Lord was the other end of the Spectrum as far as luck was concerned. He has been condemned on evidence started by a third hand story which was embellished and added to by the press. he was branded guilty before he even appeared in front of his judges. he was judged by ambitious politicians and pompous, narrow minded officials. Exploited by headline grabbers and has been pilloried by amateurs ever since. He had the bad luck to be saddles with a dithering apprentice. An incompetent 3/O and a 2/O who did not know how to obey or interpret orders.
Another overall problem of the times which none of us can comprehend is the relationship between old and new communication systems. Also the regulation of marine laws of the sea and accepted practices. THis was the time when regulation was beginning to overtake haphazard disconnected attitudes to safety of life at sea. It was an ongoing process. Just a pity that it had to get a 'rocket boost' from the titanic tragedy.
Passenger ship captains - particularly those of the White Star later Cunard etc were regarded as absolute marine snobs for most of the last century. Why for instance were these captains showered with honours, knighthoods etc? It was the marine version of the British Class system. This was very obvious during the BOT enquiry. 'Yes officers are more intelligent than seamen'.
Incidentally; you're quite close to the mark in your assessment of my past. I did sail on passenger ships on the very route we're discussing. I was also schooled in the old ways by experts.

For the rest of you - yes I did read Paul's book. Didn't say I agreed with it but it is well written, researched and full of sound figures and facts - more than enough to satisfy 'the hungry'.

regards,

Jim
 
Dear JIm

Sorry, but I have to take issue with some of your points.

“He has been condemned on evidence started by a third hand story which was embellished and added to by the press”

Hardly that — the words that condemned Lord were those he gave at the two inquiries, particularly that of Lord Mersey ( see pages 57 to 65 of Paul’s book ) which alone would be given weight in arriving at a decision. The press play no part in that.

And let’s not forget who it was called a press conference on his ship the minute it put into Boston on April 18th . If the press took an interest in Captain Lord, it’s because Lord invited them to do so.

“he was branded guilty before he even appeared in front of his judges”

One of the many, many things I learned from Paul’s book that I had not been cognizant of before was that there was actually a case mounted for the defence of Captain Lord and the men of the Californian by Dunlop — it runs from pages 124 to 144 and I find it fascinating that so much of what became the “ Lordite” case over the years was first presented at the Inquiry - and found wanting. I suspect because it failed to convince then it doesn’t get much mentioned now — but it must be noted that Dunlop, as every professional lawyer should, does his very best for his client to present a case for their actions. Or in this case, inaction.

What is important is that far from being branded guilty and not given a chance to refute such a verdict I would suggest that in the best traditions of British Justice, when it functions properly, over a period of several hours someone was allowed to speak and defend Lord et al in a court of law. That is not the actions of a kangaroo court. What instead happened is that a case for the defense was presented, considered and rejected. Such is the due process of law.

“he was judged by ambitious politicians and pompous, narrow minded officials”

What ambitious politicians stood in judgement of Stanley Lord ? None that I can think of.

The day after Mersey delivered his judgment the Board of Trade considered taking proceedings against him, but ultimately decided not to ( p 151 ) for a variety of reasons. One would think that ambitious politicians or pompous, narrow-minded idiots would have respectively wanted or been required by regulation to have taken action — but if anything a strong degree of discretion was shown. No politicians railed against him in the press, no-one called for his prosecution and even the man who had him removed from his next command with the Leyland Line, Sir Miles Walker Mattinson, did it within the privacy of the board-room and didn’t go outside to spill his guts to the newspapers.

“Exploited by headline grabbers and has been pilloried by amateurs ever since”

The headlines have been exploited on both sides of the argument, to be fair. Look at the lead up to the de Coverley report when “Lordites” proclaimed the imminent vindication of their man. Didn’t happen. Did they accept the findings ? Did they bunnies…

Indeed given that we first find Lord communicating his story to the outside world through the medium of the Boston newspapers when Californian comes in on April 18th 1912 Lord wasn’t slow to exploit himself — just read the self-aggrandising fluffery he comes out with, all those hints of “state secrets “ and the like. Similarly all those years later when he first goes to Leslie Harrison to tell his story it’s because of the interest generated in him by the film A Night to Remember and subsequent newspaper stories. Let’s not forget the extent to which Harrison attempts to rally the newspapers on behalf of his friend even after that friend has passed away. Or all those alternative suggestions for “ the ship that stood still !” that have been advanced over the years amidst blizzards of publicity. You don’t see the “ Anti-Lordites “ running to the Murdoch press with the startling news that Californian saw rockets every few years, do you ? But we’ve had the Samson, the Mount Temple, “a mysterious foreign vessel with a badge on her funnel” and the entire Newfoundland fishing fleet illegally hunting for whatever put forward — and demolished as suspects. Maybe if they left well enough alone the poor man wouldn’t be such a victim of public attention ?

No, Captain Lord can’t be portrayed as a victim of the press when he was eager to bring it in when it suited him. Truly, here is a man who was hoist by his own petard. Pity he keeps getting hauled back up every so often.

“ He had the bad luck to be saddles with a dithering apprentice. An incompetent 3/O and a 2/O who did not know how to obey or interpret orders.”

Well, whose fault was that ? He was captain — if his crew was dysfunctional then it was for him to do something about it, surely ? Not least find out what’s going on when his supposedly “ dithering …incompetent…” officers shout down the voice tube about seeing rockets in the night, I’d suggest.

“Passenger ship captains - particularly those of the White Star later Cunard etc were regarded as absolute marine snobs for most of the last century.”

Well, Lord was captain of a ship licensed to carry passengers, y’know…

“ Why for instance were these captains showered with honours, knighthoods etc? It was the marine version of the British Class system.”

Er…because they were professional men who had usually started from the bottom and worked their way up in their professions ? If anything, it was a recognition of merit rather than a reinforcement of the class system. Forgive me, but I cannot think of many of the sons of landed aristocracy commanding passenger ships, can you ? Warships, yes —first son takes over the family business, second son into the clergy and third ( and stupidest ) into the forces. But going into trade ? It’s not done, old man…

E J Smith’s parents were shop-owners, Rostron worked up from apprentice on barques as did Lord, Lightoller’s mother died in child birth and his father did a bunk, and Murdoch’s paternal side were all mariners to choose but five of our major players. For an ambitious but poor lad the sea offered an alternative to the mines or the mills at this time, and for the meritorious a means to advance. If they were ultimately knighted and showered with honours it was because they worked damn hard to get it.

"This was very obvious during the BOT enquiry"

Where ? I see no evidence of any class prejudice showing through at the Inquiry in regards to the handling of ships. Oh to be sure the various passengers might have been lightly handled and there are the stories of Astor and his manservant retiring to dress properly so they might die like gentlemen and the like but they were the construct of the press rather than the Inquiry ( here I would refer you to S Biel’s fascinating study Down With The Old Canoe for the way legends and myths were used to enhance social mores in the press and popular writings ). Given the way the likes of Ismay and the Duff-Coopers were whispered about afterwards I see nothing that indicates that class status preservation was in any way a concern of Mersey et al. Do you ?

I can understand your sympathy for a fellow mariner who appears to you to be a victim of an unfair process that left him skewered in the path of the world press. The problem is, I don't think that is what happened.

Lord erred. He erred in not reacting to reports of rockets, he erred in thinking he could use the press to make himself out to be important in April 1912 and not expect it to look any further into his story, he erred in believing he would not be closely examined in court, and he erred in 1959 when he thought sufficient time had passed for memories to dim, witnesses to have passed away, and to allow him to rpesent himself as a put upon victim.

Alas for him, history doesn't work like that

best wishes

Dave Moran
 
>>I can understand your sympathy for a fellow mariner who appears to you to be a victim of an unfair process that left him skewered in the path of the world press. The problem is, I don't think that is what happened.<<

Actually, what happened to Captain Lord was a lot more insidious.

Let me state from the onset that having gone over evidence from both sides over the years...both pro and con...I'm convinced that the negetive verdict of history is more or less the correct one. The rockets that were seen seal the deal. The Titanic fired rockets, the Californian saw rockets, no other ship was there firing rockets. Had there been any such, the shooter would have been seen by both the Californian and the Titanic.

So did Captain Lord get a raw deal?

Damned right he did, but not for the reason a lot of people may think. The problem here is one which I've been saying for years, in that what was put out there were the official conclusions of both inquiries, none of which was ever presented to a jury or tested in any sort of trial. He was indicted without being indicted, tried without being tried, convicted without being convicted, and had no recourse or avenue of appeal afterwards because legally, nothing happened.

Call me a revanchist, right wing nut conservative for this if that's what floats your boat, but I'm just old fashioned enough to think that anybody accused of a criminal offence at least deserves his day in court where the state has to actually prove the charges that are leveled, and where the accused enjoys the right to call witnesses and present evidence in his defence. It's a right which Captain Lord never recieved.
 
The Titanic fired rockets, the Californian saw rockets.

That's the kicker. Far be it from me to say anything against Capt. Lord. I'm not an expert at all on the Californian or her Crew. What I know I know from reading Walter Lord's two books and ET's The Californian Incident, A Reality Check by Tracy Smith, Michael H. Standart & Captain Erik D. Wood which I need to re-read.

What I'm trying to say is that Capt. Lord should of responded to the Rockets and at least woke up the Radio Man or sent out a boat if the Californian was surrounded by flow ice and couldn't move. He could of done something but then again he was in a tough situation. But as Walter Lord said in TNLO
"There was a certain amount of slackness on the Californian that night."
But they should of done something to at least investigate the rockets. Also like Walter Lord if I could go back in time I'd go not to the Titanic but to the Californian.
 
Hi George.
What I'm trying to say is that Capt. Lord should of responded to the Rockets and at least woke up the Radio Man or sent out a boat if the Californian was surrounded by flow ice and couldn't move.
The assumption here is that Capt. Lord was given enough initial information to cause concern. You may want to look at my article on this site called A Captain Accused. Things may not have been as clear cut as they may seem to be.
 
>>What I know I know from reading Walter Lord's two books and ET's The Californian Incident, A Reality Check by Tracy Smith, Michael H. Standart & Captain Erik D. Wood which I need to re-read.<<

And which has a few minor errors we need to correct at some point.

You might want to give Sam's article a much closer look since it better addresses some of the issues being debated here. When Tracy, Erik, and I were writing our article, we were more focused on whether or not a rescue was even possible.
 
Sam and Michael,

I always thought there was confusing testimony as to what Stone and Gibson had seen and what Lord had thought they had seen. I agree that both Gibson and Stone should of been more on the ball about relating to Capt. Lord what they had seen but Lord could of asked more questions or and here's a thought gone up to the bridge and seen for himself what was going on. After all he'd heard about that one Rocket. But of course it's easy for me to say what he should of done. I wasn't there that April night. I still think that there's a bit of slackness about the Californian Crew's communication skills or how they (Lord, Stone and Gibson) remembered what happened that night.

Sam,
I liked your Article. Especially the picture that showed what Stone or Gibson would of seen that night from their binoculars (Glasses) on the Californian.
happy.gif



Sure was dark night. I keep thinking it was lighter like in the Movie Titanic. Although even that's as dark as Cameron could have it and yet still have the audience be able to see what's going on.
 
Dave,

First off let me say that I do not believe Captain Lord is completely blameless in this. He should have tried to find out what was going on that night and he didn't. Based on what I have read he could not have gotten to the Titanic in time to make a real difference in the outcome but he should have at least made an attempt.

That being said I also believe he was villified unjustly because someone needed to be and he was the easiest one at the time. I also disagree with some of the things you said in your last post.

>>the words that condemned Lord were those he gave at the two inquiries,<<

Its true that what Captain Lord said at the two inquiries did little to help his case they alone did not condemn him. Gill's testimony did more to condemn him as well as the words of the other officers that testified.

>>there was actually a case mounted for the defence of Captain Lord and the men of the Californian by Dunlop<<

While Dunlop was there to defend the Leyland Line and by association Captain Lord he was constantly interrupted and undermined by Lord Mersey. In the full transcript of the British Inquiry the testimony of the Californians officers and crew takes almost two days and 70 pages. After reading it I felt like Mercy had made up his mind before any of them testified. This is also evident during Dunlop's closing statement which he estimated would take an hour at most. It wound up taking more than two because of Mersey's interruptions.

>>What ambitious politicians stood in judgement of Stanley Lord ? None that I can think of. <<

Lord Mercy did!! Mersey actually asked if he had the authority to revoke Lords certificate before the Inquiry was officially concluded.

>>The day after Mersey delivered his judgment the Board of Trade considered taking proceedings against him, <<

Do you think they would have if Mersey had not judged Captain Lord the way he did?


Read the full transcripts of the hearings as well as Leslie Reade's book 'The Ship That Stood Still', Leslie Harrison's book A Titanic Myth' and Senan Molony's book 'Titanic and The Mystery Ship as they deal with this subject as well. The first two books are pro Lord and the latter deals with other ships in the area
 
The first two books are pro Lord and the latter deals with other ships in the area.
Actually, Reade's book, 'The Ship That Stood Still,' is very much anti-Lord, while the latter two you mentioned, Leslie Harrison's book A Titanic Myth' and Senan Molony's book 'Titanic and The Mystery Ship' are very much pro-Lord.

This is one subject that tends to polarize people. It is difficult not to take sides. It is one of those subjects that raises passions and clouds objectivity. Yet, it is a story that should be told, but the Titanic crazed media seems to be ignorant of this story within a story. They seem to be focused on finding an undiscovered magic bullet that sank the ship or caused it to split apart.
 
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