We know that Rostron mistook the time of green flare. We believe he saw green flare at 3:15. Then this is reasonable to assume that he mistook the time of sighting the steamer lights too. Let's say he did see the steamer at 3:15. The Carpathia and the steamer were approaching each other. Rostron should have seen more of her in the next 30 minutes. She would have taken much more important place in his testimony. All of the above makes me to believe he saw the lights at 3:50. And not at 3:15, and at that time he saw the stopped Californian.
The mystery ship as seen from the Carpathia
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Aaron_2016
Guest
Refraction would allow him to see the green flare much earlier.
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Right, except he testified that right after he saw the flare he started fairing reassurance rockets. The survivors could have easily seen these rockets from 20 miles away with no refraction, but nobody did until 3:20 or something. Now think: Rostron said that when he saw the flare he thought the Titanic was still afloat 20 miles away? Why would he think that at 2:40 he was 20 miles away from the Titanic, if the only SOS position he knew about was more than 30 miles away? So it is absolutely clear that he mistook the time of the flare. He saw flare at 3:15 and the steamer at 3:50 or so at about the same time the Carpathia was observed from the Californian. The mystery of Carpathia "mystery" ship is solved!
Aaron_2016
Guest
He was under pressure and hoping for the best. He steamed full speed for the Titanic's position and scanning the horizon. Any lights seen would bring him assurance that maybe one of them was the Titanic. i.e. wishful thinking. The Titanic was steaming slowly and drifting after the collision. Rostron probably had no idea how much progress the Titanic might have made towards the Carpathia before the evacuation began, and he would not know how much progress his ship was making especially as he said he changed course many times and had to avoid half a dozen iceberg. With his ship making continuous alterations he may have lost track on how far they still needed to go. Any lights seen on the horizon would bring encouragement. Strange things enter the minds of many men. e.g. After the Titanic sank Hichens reportedly thought there was a coastal buoy floating nearby, and when 3rd officer Pitman felt the collision he thought the ship was anchoring at some port. "After a little thinking, wondering where we were anchoring."
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Samuel Halpern
Member
What he meant was that the steamer seemed to be closer than where they were headed for. He also said the steamer was about 2 points on his starboard bow, or bearing N30W true. He was heading N52W true. He never said what happened to this vessel after it was sighted. He leaves the impression that they just continued on and never bothered to look back.
If he really saw a green flare at 2:40, and if he turned around at 0:35, then he saw that flare 2h 05m after turning for the SOS position, which he said was 58nm away. Allowing 16 knots, he would closed the distance from 58 to 25nm from the SOS by 2:40. He optimistically said he was about 20.
If Rostron's time of 2:40 was really 2h 40m after turning around, then it would be 3:15 his time when he really saw the flare. By 3:50am he would have been pretty close to the boat.
Sam, what I am saying that he said he saw flare at 2:40. You and Paul Lee and others agree that actually it was at 3:15. But you all failed to realize that Rostron said he saw steamer light at 3:15. Evidently this time is as wrong as 2:40. Otherwise he would have connected the both sightings. You all tried to figure out what steamer he saw at 3:15. The answer is none. He saw the steamer (Californian) at 3:50. He got his time for the steamer sighting as wrong as his time for the rockets sifting. He knew he saw the steamer about 35 minutes after he saw the flare and here where his mistake came from.
So what I am saying there is no more Carpathia's mystery ship.The steamer was Californian and she was sighted at the time she should have been sighted.
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Samuel Halpern
Member
Mila,
What doesn't check for me is the bearing of the steamer that Rostron sighted. N30W true does not fit a sighting of Californian.. Of course, he may have been wrong about his ship's heading at the time the steamer was sighted, but it was 2 points (about 22°) on his starboard bow. I simply cannot jump to the same conclusion as you did.
What doesn't check for me is the bearing of the steamer that Rostron sighted. N30W true does not fit a sighting of Californian.. Of course, he may have been wrong about his ship's heading at the time the steamer was sighted, but it was 2 points (about 22°) on his starboard bow. I simply cannot jump to the same conclusion as you did.
Sam, do not forget that at 3:50 the Carpathia' s course had been already adjusted to get the Carpathia to flares. If you take these 2 points of the adjusted course it very well could be where the Californian was, and if the bearing is still do not add up for you, I guess it should be adjusted. He simply could not have seen the flare and the steamer at the same time and did not place the sightings together, when he testified. Bedsides if he saw the steamer at 3:15 he should have seen more of her for the next 30 minutes, but at 3:50 he was very busy with the icebergs and the lifeboats. He no longer had time to spend looking at a distant steamer.
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Julian Atkins
Member
Hi Mila,
Captain Rostron repeated first seeing a green flare at 2.40am in the USA and British Inquiries, in his report to the Cunard Line, and in other accounts at the time, and in his memoirs printed in 1931. Second Officer Bissett also repeated the 2.40am time in his memoirs in 1959.
Dave Gittins has suggested that the 2 hours 40 minutes was simply the time the first green flare was seen into Carpathia's run towards the CQD position. This fits very neatly. If you look at Captain Rostron's USA Inquiry testimony he was quite vague about certain matters and had not brought any papers or logs with him. Once the mistake was made there was little point in correcting what was probably at the time a minor detail.
We also know that Captain Rostron was reluctant to correct his 4th June 1912 affidavit in respect of certain controversial details. I expect he took the view that what had happened had happened, and these details were semantics given the huge tragedy and loss of life.
Cheers,
Julian
Captain Rostron repeated first seeing a green flare at 2.40am in the USA and British Inquiries, in his report to the Cunard Line, and in other accounts at the time, and in his memoirs printed in 1931. Second Officer Bissett also repeated the 2.40am time in his memoirs in 1959.
Dave Gittins has suggested that the 2 hours 40 minutes was simply the time the first green flare was seen into Carpathia's run towards the CQD position. This fits very neatly. If you look at Captain Rostron's USA Inquiry testimony he was quite vague about certain matters and had not brought any papers or logs with him. Once the mistake was made there was little point in correcting what was probably at the time a minor detail.
We also know that Captain Rostron was reluctant to correct his 4th June 1912 affidavit in respect of certain controversial details. I expect he took the view that what had happened had happened, and these details were semantics given the huge tragedy and loss of life.
Cheers,
Julian
Aaron_2016
Guest
Captain Rostron said at the US Inquiry that he - "Ordered company's rockets to be fired at 2:45 a.m. and every quarter of an hour after to reassure Titanic."
Gibson was on the Californian and he was asked what time he witnessed the second batch of rockets.
Q - What was it?
A - About 3.40am the Second Officer whistled down to the Captain again.
Q - Twenty minutes to four?
A - Yes.
Q - Did anything happen after that?
A - Yes.
Q - What?
A - I saw three more rockets, Sir.
Q - How much after?
A - That was about twenty minutes to four.
Q - If it was twenty minutes to four it was not very far off the beginning of dawn, was it?
A - No, dawn was just breaking.
Q - Had it got any lighter?
A - Yes.
Q - Could you see when you saw this flash at all how far away you thought it was?
A - It was right on the horizon.
Q - When you saw these three further lights did you get your glasses on to the place?
A - Yes.
Q - Could you see any sign of a ship?
A - No.
Q - No sign of a masthead light?
A - No.
Q - No sign of a sidelight?
A - No.
Q - Nothing except these flashes?
A - That is all.
It is strange that Rostron was firing rockets at the same time he could see a masthead light and it was still dark. (He also said one of his officers saw her side light as well.) Yet Stone and Gibson did not see any rockets until much later when dawn was breaking. Is it possible that they missed them because Rostron said he only fired the rockets every 15 minutes? Since Gibson and Stone saw the ship disappear at 2.05am they probably saw little reason to continue looking in that direction and they would miss the first batch of rockets that were sent up by the Carpathia.
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Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Rostron sighted a light signal about 2:45 and believed it could be Titanic as it was high above the water and in the distance. Interestingly several Carpathia passengers mentioned to have seen a light about 2:45 a.m. or 3 a.m. or 3:15 a.m. but it was a blue light. So it can not have been the green flare Boxhall used. It must have been from the "mystery" steamer which she passed as Rostron said he saw only her masthead light, one of his Officers swore that he also saw her port sidelight.
Julian,
Rostron also testified that he started firing rockets right after he saw the green flare. The survivors started seeing these rockets at 3:20-3:30. If Rostron started firing them at 2:40 (2:45), they would have seen them at that time. The both testimonies about the time of sighting green flare and firing rockets right after cannot be correct at the same time. One of them ought to be an error. Of course all books written later were based on that first testimony. Nobody would have remembered a few years later what time they actually saw the flare. Rostron could not have seen the green flare at 2:40. Boxhall said he saw the rockets around 3:15
Here is the screenshot from Sam's book Report into the Loss of the SS Titanic
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In a super refraction one could see a miraged ship, but this does not mean that people from that ship could not see the first one.
A problem with sucs scenario is Californian's bearing. Rostron saw the lights not where the Californian was. What I cannot explain is how he decided the lights were between him and the Titanic. At 3:15 he was around 10 miles from the wreck site. This means the lights of the steamer he saw had to be closer than his horizon, yet he only sees mashead lights, and nobody see any deck lights. How he estimated she was between him and Titanic? I looked at boat lights at night. It is all but impossible to tell which lights are closer. If it were a super refraction then we have to assume there was yet another steamer, definetely not between Carpathia and Titanic. If there were a steamer between Carpathia and Titanic, Rostron would have seen more of her. I wonder if there were some fishing vessels from the Banks on that time?
Hi Sam, what I meant to say that was that: if we assume that the lights were seen at 3:15 then the Californian bearing were wrong, but if the lights were seen at 3:50 (when the Carpathia was much closer to Californian) the bearing could have been just right. What bothers me in all this story is that Rostron was rather specific in his statements. For example he mentioned that he saw the flare while talking to a doctor. He also mentioned that in 5 minutes or less after that they encountered the first iceberg. Could this fact be used to establish the time somehow? With the lights of the steamer... It seams that she, whatever she was, just disappeared. A mirage will do it, but at 3:15 she could not have been a mirage of the Californian, and why in the world he said the steamer was between him and the Titanic? I think if the time was wrong, and he saw the lights at 3:50 the mystery ship was the Californian. If the time was correct, he might have mistaken lights reflecting from an iceberg with a steamer. After all Bisset described "a tiny shaft of light glistening two points off the port bow. It was the first iceberg—revealed by, of all things, the mirrored light of a star".
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