The position of Stone's first "Flash" relative to the nearby vessel.


Julian Atkins

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Much to discuss... but I am sleep deprived after following a big chunk of the UK election results last night, and am not on form to replying and must go to bed.

AlexP is way off, and strangely Jim, whether he was cognizant or not of this, actually makes a number of points with which I agree, and others with which I disagree.

If Carpathia fired 'company signals' in addition to it's distress rockets, no one saw these 'company signals'. Marconigram messages indicate the distress rockets were not fired from Carpathia till around much later than 2.40/2.45, consistent with Boxhall's green flares being seen later ONLY BY CARPATHIA , and consistent with Dave Gittins', and Sam's research as to the miss-timings of Rostron that night, and the errors he made, and his speed and distance. Dave Gittins' research is crucial, and cannot be emphasised enough.

Gibson and Stone never saw any of Boxhall's green flares from Boxhall's lifeboat, which is quite understandable as they were just too far away; but they did see 3 of Carpathia's distress rockets being fired off from around 3.20am onwards on the 15th April; just on the horizon. Gibson clearly saw 3 of them, and stated as much, and as corroborated by the PV of the Caronia and the Mount Temple from wireless messages sent by Cottom on Carpathia at the time.

I am sorry to repeat myself yet again, but all of this is covered most conclusively in Sam's new book "Strangers on The Horizon", and the stuff on the Carpathia is very compelling, backed up by all the other evidence that certain posters on here appear to be unaware of.

Cheers,
Julian
 
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Julian Atkins

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Ok, I am finding this very difficult on here as on re-reading my post above, I now find a load more posts that were not displayed when I logged in, and I'm a paying member on here.

This does make things very difficult to follow and to reply to.

Cheers,
Julian
 
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AlexP

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Rostron: "In the meantime I had been firing rockets and the Company’s signals every time we saw this green light again."
Let’s talk some more about this. What Captain Rostron said exactly:
“In the meantime I had been firing rockets and the Company's signals every time we saw this green light again”
And now let’s see what Mr. Stengel said:

“It was toward morning that we turned, and by that time another man and myself thought we saw rockets - one rocket; that is, a rocket explode - and I said, "I think I saw a rocket," and another one said, "I think I saw a rocket," and one of the stokers, I think it was, said, "I see two lights. I believe that is a vessel." Then, after that, when another green light was burned, there was a flash light from a boat, and I said, "Now, I am pretty positive that is a boat, because that is an answer to the green signal," and one of the stokers said, "The green light is the company's color," I understood him to say. That is what he said. Whether he was right or not, I do not know. When we saw that flashlight, it was like powder was set off.”

So as you see, Sam, you have no evidence to allege that all three flashes seen by Mr. Gibson were carpathia’s rockets because Mr. Stengel saw three different types of flashes, and Captain Rostron did not say he was firing rockets all the time, he said “rockets and the Company’s signals” , which confirms the testimony of Mr. Stengel. Furthermore in the USA Captain Rostron stated they were firing rockets every 15 minutes. You also have no evidence to allege that Californian’s heading was changing back and forth.
Don’t you think that you had to make too many allegations that are not supported by evidence just to speculate that all three flashes Mr. Gibson saw were the Carpathia’s rockets?
 

Julian Atkins

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Do you understand the English Language, AlexP/Mila?

Stengel is describing the green flares off Boxhall's lifeboat!

There is no evidence that Rostron did in fact fire 'company signals' other than what he reported, and the Cunard 'company signals' were as follows:-


Cunard Line1. A blue light and two rockets bursting into golden stars, fired in quick succession.


2. A blue light and two Roman Candles, each throwing out six blue balls to a height not exceeding 150 feet and fired in quick succession.
Off Brow Head in the county of Cork, and off Queenstown Harbor in the county of Cork.

No Green 'company lights'!


(The above extract from Dave Bilnitzer's wayback machine archive of Cunard Registered Company Signals as they were in 1912).

And significantly, and additionally, Captain Lord could have checked in his Chart Room library in a pamphlet much earlier that what he was told by Stone of a white rocket or white rockets could NOT have been "Company Signals" as no ship on the high seas exhibited white rockets as "Company Signals", as per the "Registered Company Signals"

Cheers,
Julian
 
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AlexP

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Let's compare Mr. Stengel testimony o the testimonies of others one more time.
It was toward morning that we turned, and by that time another man and myself thought we saw rockets - one rocket; that is, a rocket explode - and I said, "I think I saw a rocket," and another one said, "I think I saw a rocket," and one of the stokers [Mr Stengel sees the first and the only Carpathia's rocket] I think it was, said, "I see two lights. I believe that is a vessel."[Almost immediately they see the navigational lights of the Carpathia.] Then, after that, when another green light was burned, [Mr Stengel sees Boxhall's green flare] there was a flash light from a boat, and I said, "Now, I am pretty positive that is a boat, because that is an answer to the green signal," and one of the stokers said, "The green light is the company's color," I understood him to say. That is what he said. Whether he was right or not, I do not know. When we saw that flashlight, it was like powder was set off.”
[Mr. Stengel sees the company's signal fired in the response to Boxhall's green flare].

Let's sum: Mr. Stengel sees a rocket, the navigational lights, Boxhall's green flare and the last he sees is Carpathia's response to the latest green flare. He takes his time to describe how that response looked. He says: "When we saw that flashlight, it was like powder was set off.” It was not a rocket and not another green light coming from the lifeboat # 2, it was a different thing. It was the Carpathia's company signal. Now let's take a look at a possible geometry of the situation described by Mr. Gibson in regards to the lights he saw at 3:20, and Mr. Stone's testimony that Californian was heading about west at that time. In the figure below the Californian is marked with "C", Carpathia is marked with "A" and Boxhall's lifeboat is marked with "B".

1576343636220.png


Mr. Stengel's lifeboat was probably slightly further away. Although at the time they observed the rocket and the company's signal the Carpathia's navigational lights were probably above Mr. Stengel's horizon, they were not yet bright enough to see them with the naked eye. Remember, Mr. Steward testified he only saw one light before he used the glasses to see the other lights of the Carpathia.
The above analysis is yet another reason to believe that Californian and Titanic were drifting in different sets of current and that sometimes a person could either forget the color of a distant flash he saw or mistake it with a different color. It is what often happens with the distant hard-tose lights.

So, Sam, as you see your speculation that all three flashes Mr. Gibson and Mr. Stone saw were Carpathia's rockets is probably incorrect, and with that you should reconsider every other speculation you've made. Mila and me believe that Mr. Gibson saw two Boxhall's green flares and one Carpathia's rocket. We could think of at least two reasons he did not see the green flares before.
 
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Mike Spooner

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Seeing this discussion been go on for some time now between Gibson, Stone and Boxhall. Can someone remind me what are we trying to prove here? And would made any different to the out come of Titanic?
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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Around 3:20am, the time those rockets were seen from Californian, the mast lights of Carpathia should have been coming up over the horizon to those in the boats if they were looking toward the SE.

So, Sam, as you see your speculation that all three flashes Mr. Gibson and Mr. Stone saw were Carpathia's rockets is probably incorrect,
Not any of my speculation Alex. Here is what Gibson wrote on Apr 18th:
"At about 3.20 looking over the weather cloth, I observed a rocket about two points before the beam (Port), which I reported to the Second Officer. About three minutes later I saw another rocket right abeam which was followed later by another one about two points before the beam."

Then at the inquiry he was asked:
7578. Did anything happen after that? - Yes.
7579. What? - I saw three more rockets, Sir.
...
7591. Are you quite sure that these three rockets were ever seen by you at all? - Yes, Sir. I saw the first one, and I reported it to the Second Officer, and we looked out for more to see if we could see any more - and we saw two more.
...
7597. What sort of a light was it? You called it a rocket? Was it a flash; did you see it go up into the sky? - Yes.
7598. What colour was it? - White. [Not blue, not green, not gold Alex.]
7599. And you called Mr. Stone’s attention to it, did you, and then there were two more seen? - Yes.

That's the evidence Alex. That's not speculation, so stop calling it that.
 

AlexP

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Seeing this discussion been go on for some time now between Gibson, Stone and Boxhall. Can someone remind me what are we trying to prove here? And would made any different to the out come of Titanic?
I'm trying to explain why Mr. Stone could have assumed the Titanic changed her bearings and demonstrate that other testimonies are consistent with Mr. Stone's testimony and could prove the Titanic did change bearings. It could explain Mr. Stone's inaction "steamer in distress do not steam away."
 

AlexP

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Not blue, not green, not gold Alex.]
It does not mean a thing. It was a very low, very distant light. The atmosphere, and sea smoke between the light and an observer could have easily changed it perception. After all Captain Rostron did not call it “green” either in his testimony in the USA.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Seeing this discussion been go on for some time now between Gibson, Stone and Boxhall. Can someone remind me what are we trying to prove here? And would made any different to the out come of Titanic?
Regarding your question #1: Jim Currie started this thread alleging: "If that nearby vessel had been the sinking Titanic with the Californian ahead bearing North West and eventually 2 points on the port bow, then that nearby vessel could not have been the SS Californian."
Regarding your question #2: No Mike, in my opinion, it would not have made any difference in the outcome despite signals of distress being seen from Californian that night, and Californian stood still.
 

Mike Spooner

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Californian may share some of the blame by not responding to the distress rockets. But Titanic must share the blame as well. If had 36 distress rockets why didn't she fire all of them? I would of thought if Californian after seeing more than 20 rockets would of made her move!
 

AlexP

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That's the evidence Alex. That's not speculation, so stop calling it that.
So I asked Mila about this, and she asked Dr. Young.
He responded :

“Of course, when vision is fully scotopic, neither green nor blue can be seen in faint lights. Even the bluest faint stars just look "white".”

Of course the green flares were bright, but for the Mr. Gibson they were located rather far away and therefore faint.
So as you see, Sam, any technical expert would have destroyed your “evidence” easily.
In addition to accept your so called “evidence” that the tree flashes Mr. Gibson saw were all Carpathia’s rockets, we have to ignore
Mr. Stengel’s account and Captain Rostron’s testimony he gave in the USA where he said he ordered rockets to be fired every 15 minutes. In addition, we have to assume that somehow Californian turned back and forth, both times for the same angle without anybody noticing.
So as you see your speculation that Mr. Gibson saw three Carpathia’s rockets is not only a speculation, but it is a speculation that is not supported by either evidence or common sense.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Hmm, another attack by AlexP. Why am I surprised. Here is a person who rejects the evidence of an eyewitness because he believes that eyewitness did not see what they said they saw, but rather mistook green flares for rocket flashes, and believes they were all were white because Andrew Young said blue or green would be seen as white in faint light. I guess the green sidelight seen by Lord around 11pm should have been mistaken for a white stern light, or the green sideling seen by Boxhall wasn't green at all. Not just how dim are we talking about here? Alex can't quantify that, but he claims the green flares of Boxhall would appear so faint to Gibson that they would be mistaken for rockets. He also drew a diagram that placed Californian 12 miles from Boxhall's boat, yet never explains how those flares could be seen in the first place by someone 12 miles away with height of eye 45 ft above the water. I guess there must have been very abnormal refraction causing looming of objects seen far away. Opps, that is what Tim Maltin believes. Anyway, Alex's diagram has Carpathia only 16 miles from Californian. Funny thing about that, if Carpathia at that time was only 16 miles from Californian, then everything from about the level of her bridge on up would have been visible to Californian even without any looming taking place. Yet, neither Gibson nor Stone said they saw any lights of a vessel when those rockets were seen at 3:20am. Oh, don't take my word for that Alex, here's the evidence, unless you care to rubbish it:
7602. When you saw these three further lights did you get your glasses on to the place? - Yes.
7603. Could you see any sign of a ship? - No.
7604. No sign of a masthead light? - No.
7605. No sign of a sidelight? - No.
7606. Nothing except these flashes? - That is all.
7607. Is that right? - Yes.

As posted by Julian above, Carpathia's company signals had a blue flare which was to be shown along with two roman candles throwing six blue balls to a height of less than 150 ft fired it quick succession, or a blue flare which was to be shown along with two rockets throwing golden stars fired it quick succession. Yet Stengel only sees what he called a flash like powder being set off such as from a flash powder lamp usd in photography of the day.
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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OH, one more thing.
I guess Capt. Rostron was mistaken when he saw one of Boxhall's flares at extreme range while racing to the rescue. Rostron said it was "green" but I guess from what Andrew Young told Mila, it must have appeared as white, and therefore Rostron must have lied about what he saw from so far away?
 

AlexP

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Hmm, another attack by AlexP. Why am I surprised.
Not an attack, a discussion of your findings. On the other hand you keep attacking personally not only me but even Dr. Young.

7602. When you saw these three further lights did you get your glasses on to the place? - Yes.
7603. Could you see any sign of a ship? - No.
7604. No sign of a masthead light? - No.
7605. No sign of a sidelight? - No.
7606. Nothing except these flashes? - That is all.
7607. Is that right? - Yes.
Only means that the navigational lights were not bright enough to see them. Just as it happened when people from the Titanic could not see the lights of the Californian.
Not just how dim are we talking about here?
Could have been very dim. Maybe only a portion of one of the rays was seen, who knows.
He also drew a diagram that placed Californian 12 miles from Boxhall's boat, yet never explains how those flares could be seen in the first place by someone 12 miles away with height of eye 45 ft above the water.
We do not know the height of the flares. Besides there are other atmospheric optics phenomena but super refraction that could have made it visible above it’s normal height. Try to think which ones. And you still are unable to explain why the lights seen by Mr. Gibson had different bearings.
As posted by Julian above, Carpathia's company signals had a blue flare which was to be shown along with two roman candles throwing six blue balls to a height of less than 150 ft fired it quick succession, or a blue flare which was to be shown along with two rockets throwing golden stars fired it quick succession. Yet Stengel only sees what he called a flash like powder being set off such as from a flash lamp usd in photography of the day.
Well, it is just another confirmation that sometimes the color could appear differently, although in Mr. Stengel case it appears he simply mistook the colors, because the crewman sitting next to him said it wad the company’s signal. In any case every reasonable person will agree that Mr. Stengel described 3 different events, which make sense and which are in agreement with a testimony of the Captain Rostron.

Btw when the officers on Carpathia first saw the green flare they thought it was a navigational light of the Titanic, so nothing unusual that Mr. Gibson did not recognize them as a flare.
And what about evidence in regards to the color of the Titanic rockets?
Lets see, according to the testimony given at the inquiries, the color of the rockets fired by the Titanic was:
White.
No wait, the color was:
Pale blue.
Argh! Hold the phone, they were actually all:
Multicolored.
These are all evidence, Sam. Which color do you prefer?

And to sum:
You cannot provide a reasonable info on why Mr. Gibson’s flashes had different bearings.
You have no explanation why Carpathia would have fired 3 rockets in a row while risking colliding with an iceberg by impairing the lookouts’ vision.
You cannot connect three rockets with either Mr. Stengel’s or Captain Rostron’s testimonies.

On the other hand drifting in different sets of current nicely explains practically everything, and without trying to reach your left ear with your right arm.
 
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AlexP

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OH, one more thing.
I guess Capt. Rostron was mistaken when he saw one of Boxhall's flares at extreme range while racing to the rescue. Rostron said it was "green" but I guess from what Andrew Young told Mila, it must have appeared as white, and therefore Rostron must have lied about what he saw from so far away?
I might be mistaking , but I believe The first time Captain Rostron said it was green was in England after he knew it was green. In the US he did not specify the color.
 

Jim Currie

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Rostron: We saw one adrift bottom up amongst the wreckage of the “Titanic.”
Of course he did, but he did not say where he was when he saw it. Think about it. For a moment forget about your extrapolation of the evidence and accept it at face value. Consider the following from Captain Rostron:

"25496. I need not pursue that in detail, because we have more exact evidence of it, but I thought it was right to ask you. That agrees, your Lordship sees, with evidence which we have got. (To the witness.) Did you see any wreckage at all of the "Titanic"?
- The only wreckage we saw there was very small stuff - a few deck chairs and pieces of cork from lifebelts, and a few lifebelts knocking about, and things of that description, all very small stuff indeed. There was very little indeed."


No mention of an upturned boat in that lot. But before that, as you point out:

"25483. The two collapsibles? - Yes; and there is one berthon boat which we saw amongst the wreckage bottom up. It was reported to me that there was another Berthon boat still on board the ship."

So tell me Sam, which story fits best your speculations?

You complain about me not giving you the answer you required regarding Stone's bearing, yet, have not answered my question concerning the northward passage of the Almerian against a current or how it was that Carpathia found herself to the eastward of her target of Boxhall's CQS position despite pointing right at it. Nor have you explained how it was that the Mount Temple maintained her course while crossing a south-setting current.
You have not explained why, despite the reports of numerous vessels traversing the area in the days before and after the disaster, not one single one reported a south setting current which rivaled the Gulf Stream easterly extension in speed.

Concerning the question of wreckage, Consider this.
Captain Lord stated that he turned his ship in a wide circle down wind, traveling 10 miles south to the end of ice and then back to where he started. He started that at 9 am and according to him, left wreckage at 41-33'North. In fact.he probably covered about a quarter of a circle whose diameter was in the region of 20 miles. This means he would have steamed a distance of about 25.75 miles and surveyed an area of about 78.5 square miles down wind of where he met Carpathia. There would be no point in searching northward, given the wind direction. Nor was there any point in searching to the west.
It is highly unlikely that Californian would have averaged much more that 11 knots over the distance. It follows that if she started her search at say
9-10 am, she would have completed it 2 hours 21 minutes later, at 11-31 am. Shortly after that, she turned west and went slowly back through the ice barrier. However, I find it difficult to believe that Californian left the main wreckage at 41-33'North.

Captain Rostron estimated that he had 58 miles to run from where he turned the Carpathia to the CQD position sent by Titanic. He also gave his ETA at that position to be 4-30 am. This means that if he turned at 12-40 am, he estimated his average speed would be about 15 knots.
If Rostron had received a CQD positon of 41-45 North, 49-56'West, he would have needed to steer N 47 W for a distance of 47 miles. If he made 15 knots on that course and arrived about a mile from Boxhall at 4 pm then when he stopped his engines he would have run a total of 49,5 miles and arrive at latitude 41-44'North...the latitude of the wreck site.
However, the most important fact that can be gleaned from this is that if Carpathia made 15 knots on her rescue run, then she found Boxhall at or near to the wreck site . It follows that Titanic did not drift southward after she stopped. Consequently the main wreckage must have been at that location.

However, the wind got up at about 3-30 am and continued to rise thereafter. This meant that high profile floating objects such as loaded lifeboats would, if not held bow to wind, start making leeway, at speed commensurate with the rise in wind speed.
Additionally, When the Carpathia stopped, she too would start making leeway...at a speed rising quickly to near to 0.75 knots.

To add to the problem, several boats, when seeing Carpathia, rowed toward her as she approached from the southeast. Others rowed in the direction of Boxhall. However, it was a full half hour before the second boat was recovered by Carpathia and almost 4 hours after that when the last boat was recovered.
Bottom line is that the upturned boat, the bodies and most of the wreckage such as wooden stairways, cork, ladders and the Barber's pole etc would have been located well to the north of where Carpathia was engaged in recovering lifeboats.

As for Lord's 41-33.North position? he claimed: "I met him [SS Frankfurt] 5 or 10 minutes past 12, after I was leaving the Titanic, the scene of the disaster. He was running along parallel with the ice, apparently trying to find an opening, and he saw me coming through and he headed for the place I was coming out, and as I came out he went in. He went through the same place toward the scene of the disaster."

However, the evidence of 3/O Groves throws a spanner in the navigation works. When he was asked " How far do you think you had traveled from the time that you got on your way after searching round the wreckage until your noon position? Do you think it would be about five miles? He replied... " No, more than that; about 11. That is in distance.".
The Noon Latitude was given as 41-33'N. and the Longitude as 50-09'W. That was a total distance of just 6.5 miles west of the eastern side of the ice barrier. Lord stated that he came through the barrier slowly and you claim it was 5 miles wide. Methinks there was a mix up in memories regarding wreckage and timing. If it was 5 miles wide as you claim, then Californian could only have been about just over a mile clear of it at Noon that day. Not only that, but if Groves was right, then Californian was some 4.5 or so miles from it when they left of the search for survivors.(and the scant wreckage which might easily have been discarded from lifeboats as they were hoisted aboard Carpathia. Might that have been at or near to 41-37.5 North?









Now consider the actions
 
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