The position of Stone's first "Flash" relative to the nearby vessel.


Jim Currie

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The chart below was yours Jim. I just added the directions for SSW magnetic and SSW true, and circled your position for Carpathia at 3:20. I assume the Californian position at 4am was the same as it was at 3:20am on your chart.
View attachment 45413
For a start off. you have applied the error the wrong way. In addition, the compass directions used were a combination of Variation and Deviation
errors. Your red arrows should have been labelled...on the left: SSW Compass, not Magnetic and on the right: South, True.
These were general direction used by the witnesses. In fact. the error of the compass on a westerly heading at that place was Deviation 5.5 West, Variation 24 West. That is a total error of 29.5 West. It follows that if the actually bearing taken at the time was SSW... 202.5 degrees, the True bearing would have been S 3/4 E...173.5 degrees.

There was no change in the ships' position. If these lads saw a vessel to the south, then that vessel was on the west side of the ice, not the east side of it. Try plotting the true direction. You will find that it places the vessel slightly to the right of where your RH red line crosses the eastern and western sides of the ice.
What was it Groves said?
" 321. Now it is getting on for 7? A: - I suppose by the time I got on the bridge it would be 6.50; but you understand the time is only approximate.
8322. I quite understand that. Were there any other vessels in sight? A:- Yes.
8323. What were they? A: - There was a four-masted steamer abeam on our port side.
8324. What steamer was that? A: - I did not know at the time, but I knew afterwards she was the "Carpathia."
8325. Abeam on your port side? A: - Abeam on our port side....I should think she would be about 5 miles - possibly more, possibly less, but about five. "


You and I know that was nonsense... no matter where Californian started off from. The point is that there was a stopped vessel on the port beam of the Californian just as she began crossing the pack ice . Try plotting that one.
 

AlexP

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There was no change in the ships' position. If these lads saw a vessel to the south, then that vessel was on the west side of the ice, not the east side of it. Try plotting the true direction. You will find that it places the vessel slightly to the right of where your RH red line crosses the eastern and western sides of the ice.
We cannot be sure that there was no change in the ship’s position. If the Californian drifted ENE or so the Carpathia could have been located on the eastern side of the sea ice and still be SSW from the Californian. Besides we do not know how the ice-field looked before morning wind arrived. There was a few miles between the Titanic and sea ice when she struck.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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For a start off. you have applied the error the wrong way. In addition, the compass directions used were a combination of Variation and Deviation
errors. Your red arrows should have been labelled...on the left: SSW Compass, not Magnetic and on the right: South, True.
I assumed that in your drawing that true North was straight up. So here are the directions using a magnetic compass showing 29.5°W total error on the right. The compass rose on the left shows true directions relative to the earth.
1577133855611.png
 

Jim Currie

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I assumed that in your drawing that true North was straight up. So here are the directions using a magnetic compass showing 29.5°W total error on the right. The compass rose on the left shows true directions relative to the earth.
View attachment 45416
Sam.... you are blowing smoke. You know as well as I do that the Compass card always point to the Magnetic North, plus or minus the magnetic Deviation caused by the induced magnetism in the surrounding steel work or nearby electric cable. Lets stop the nonsense and cut to the chase...eh?

We will use 360 degree notation. SSW = the direction of 202-30'. If this is a true direction it is relative to True North. To find the magnetic or Compass Directions.... if both are West, we subtract them from the true direction. OK?
Stone and Stewart would give directions either in terms of Compass or True... never in terms of Magnetic. It follows that if Stone was referring to SSW Compass, the true direction would have bee 202-30' minus 29-30' = 173, which is South 3/4 East.
For your information, it was standard practice at sea to mentally apply the known error to a Standard Compass bearing until the next error was calculated by star or transit observation. It saved little bits of paper and was simple mental arithmetic. In any case., it was usually chalked on the board. Deviation only changed with an appreciable change of heading and variation changed with easterly or westerly progress and the calendar.

Both men were referring to a direction on the beam... in the case of Stewart: as it was at 4 am. In the case of Stone, as it was 40 minutes earlier. They were discussing the same ship which was abeam relative at 4 am which was South True (180) if the head was West True,(270) and SSW (202-30)'if the head was WNW Compass.(292-30').
 

Jim Currie

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We cannot be sure that there was no change in the ship’s position. If the Californian drifted ENE or so the Carpathia could have been located on the eastern side of the sea ice and still be SSW from the Californian. Besides we do not know how the ice-field looked before morning wind arrived. There was a few miles between the Titanic and sea ice when she struck.
Yes we do know how the ice looked on the morning of April 15, This from the mouths of two men who actually saw it, crossed in and sailed up and down its western edge:
Captain Lord:
"He [Frankfurt]was running along parallel with the ice, apparently trying to find an opening,... He was running about south-southeast, when I saw him, coming away from the northwest."
Lord also stated that the ice was running North -South for about 26 miles/

Captain Moore of the Mount Temple:

"Of course it extended as far as the eye could reach, north and south, sir....I should say 20 miles, perhaps more than that. "


Note that at no time did these men indicate that the ice barrier was trending NW to SE at any time.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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If the Californian drifted ENE or so the Carpathia could have been located on the eastern side of the sea ice and still be SSW from the Californian.
Are you saying Californian drifted to the ENE yet the ice remained where it was? Californian was always on the eastern edge of the field from the time it stopped around 10:20pm on the 14th until it briefly got underway at 5:15am on the the 15th and then again about 45 minutes later when it started to cut through the 2 to 3 miles of ice heading southwesterly more or less.
 

AlexP

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Are you saying Californian drifted to the ENE yet the ice remained where it was? Californian was always on the eastern edge of the field from the time it stopped around 10:20pm on the 14th until it briefly got underway at 5:15am on the the 15th and then again about 45 minutes later when it started to cut through the 2 to 3 miles of ice heading southwesterly more or less.
Of course it is not what I am saying. How you imagine that ice? If it were solid ice, Californian would not have been able to cross it even one time, leave alone two times. She was not an icebreaker. She could not have break the ice. So the ice was loose and yes, it could have drifted together with the Californian. Also some Titanic survivors testified that they saw no ice while they were rowing, or just sitting in their lifeboats during nighttime, but in the morning they were surrounded by ice.
 

AlexP

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Yes we do know how the ice looked on the morning of April 15, This from the mouths of two men who actually saw it, crossed in and sailed up and down its western edge:
Captain Lord:
"He [Frankfurt]was running along parallel with the ice, apparently trying to find an opening,... He was running about south-southeast, when I saw him, coming away from the northwest."
Lord also stated that the ice was running North -South for about 26 miles/

Captain Moore of the Mount Temple:

"Of course it extended as far as the eye could reach, north and south, sir....I should say 20 miles, perhaps more than that. "


Note that at no time did these men indicate that the ice barrier was trending NW to SE at any time.
Well, I said before morning. As we know there was wind there that started before down. It might have changed the direction of the ice field. Maybe at 2 a.m. it was running north to southwest.
 

AlexP

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Of course it is not what I am saying. How you imagine that ice? If it were solid ice, Californian would not have been able to cross it even one time, leave alone two times. She was not an icebreaker. She could not have break the ice. So the ice was loose and yes, it could have drifted together with the Californian. Also some Titanic survivors testified that they saw no ice while they were rowing, or just sitting in their lifeboats during nighttime, but in the morning they were surrounded by ice.
In fact, I found the following statement in the inquiry:

The ice by which the Californian was surrounded was loose ice extending for a distance of not more than 2 or 3 miles in the direction of the Titanic. The night was clear and the sea was smooth. When she first saw the rockets, the Californian could have pushed through the ice to the open water without any serious risk and so have come to the assistance of the Titanic. Had she done so she might have saved many if not all of the lives that were lost.

Of course the statement is not exactly correct, but the ice was loose something like that I assume
1577151816215.jpeg
 
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Jim Currie

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Everything you said regarding bearings is show in my post above, #284. Nothing nonsense about it.
How about commenting on my answer, Sam? You asked for a reason why Stone said what he said or wrote what he wrote...I offered one to you.
Do you, or do you not, think my answer plausible - even if it goes against your own preference for incompetence?
 

Mike Spooner

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Sorry for the late replying. I have very sick wife who requires lots of attention.
Can I remind you class barriers was very much an European way of life in the past, as in America you do not have class barriers. You well find a lawyer having a dinner with a plumber. As in Europe it would be unhear of. No doubt some of those British first class passengers having to seat in the lifeboats with third class passengers must felt down grading for them.
The point I am making with the inquires is way they are conductor as to days inquires. Where statements are gather in for months or if not years before becoming an inquire. As for the two inquires this never happen. Quite frankly both inquires had the wrong person in charge. Senator William Smith a lawyer fighting safety issues on the rail roads in US. The very man was JP Morgan enemy and Ismay only knew to well of him. Ismay could read his mind what he was trying to do by making White Star Line the guilty party, in attempt to sue the pants of them. I thought Ismay do well against him. Yet at the same time we never got the real true from Ismay. This I see how the rest of the inquiry when due to no time to investigate beforehand.
As for the British inquire again and so soon after the disaster with no time to take in all statements beforehand. Quite incredible how they started the inquire before all survivors had return to back to England! What happen to the 138 crewmen who gave statements in Plymouth. Yet not one was read out at the inquiry. Why only two statements from first class passengers? Wasn't there any second and third class passengers on board as well! I see Lord Mersey as a successful barrister in Liverpool fighting case for shipowners. I do not blame putting Mersey In charge! Those decision has come from Governments who want the inquires in the first place. But it should of been the marine experts who are independent of the White Star Line and for UK the Board of Trade, taking the statements and investigation on how the ship was lost. Its only then when all the facts are gather in which can take at least a year or not more, then you bring in the lawyers. Truly there have put the cart before the horse. It very well to say Mersey had marine experts as advisors. But clearly wasn't listening or not asking for their advice. As the mess he got into with Lord Stanley of Californian. Saying he could of come to the rescue of the 1500 who died! As any marine experts would of said that was not possible in the time scale. That is a good enough case for manslaughter. Was he ever prosecuted? Nope and why not? Did the captain have a chance to have a say of the idea rescuing the 1500 whom died? Nope. The plain fact very much a political Government policies in attempt to cover there back side. Who wanted the inquiry so soon. That can only come from the Prime Minster Asquith. I can only think due to public pressure bearing down him for answers for such a disaster. Then to appoint the Board of Trade for the inquiry! Where 26 Questions are to be answered. Yet looking at those questions there are more questions in the questions. The last count was 70 questions all very carefully worded to make sure Board of Trade are not the guilty party. No rockets and Californian are mention until about 3/4 through the inquire where a amendment is made to question 24. Where and at what time did the Titanic founder? The amendment: (a) What was the cause of the loss of the Titanic, and of the loss of life which thereby ensured or occurred? (b) What vessels had the opportunity of rending assistance to the Titanic?
What amendment (a) & (b) questions have to do with the sinking time I am not sure?
Looking at question 1. Why did Titanic start from Queenstown? And not from Belfast, Southampton and on to Cherbourg then Queenstown. Who is making the rules up here, lawyers or marine experts!
Was there any personal background investigation made on the key crew members whether died or alive as one gets in transport disaster today.
Why did Mersey turn it into a court room case? I can only think that has be his professional skill of live and knows no different.
Leave the statements and investigation to the expect in that field first and not lawyers! As we get today in disasters. By all means bring in the lawyers to follow on when having all the facts in the first place.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Stone's observations may simply have been a slip of memory brought on by the immensity of the situation he found himself-in. If you have ever been on the same spot, you will know exactly what I mean.
It very well could have been. Whatever the reason, the fact remains that Carpathia came up from the southeast, not the south or southwest. The bearing he wrote for those signals he saw at 3:20am were fairly specific. He wrote they were about SSW, not just to the southward, which would have been a very general direction as you yourself have pointed out, and to which I would agree. As far as his competence is concerned, I can only point out to you and everyone else, that as the OOW he failed to notice a steamer approach around 4am until it was pointed out to him by Stewart that there was a steamer to the southward in the general direction where Stone saw those signals about 2/3 hour earlier. (And I use the term southward in broad sense of the word.)
 

AlexP

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The ice surrounding Californian where she stopped was loose ice. She stopped about 1/4 from the edge of a field of pack ice. Here is a photograph of what this field actually looked like.
View attachment 45419
What does this picture shows? Nothing. However, I assure you that Californian would not have been able to push through the ice if the ice were solid.
These boats gut stuck in this ice. Last two crab fishing boats stuck off coastline near La Scie arrive home | The Telegram
1577210478066.png


And also read this https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/northeast-newfoundland-pack-ice-1.4086903
So there is no doubt that if Californian was able to push through the ice had to be loose.
Besides eddies are know to form on the edges of ice fields.
 

Jim Currie

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I see a lot of pontification about ice navigation by the "experts" on this page. I offermy humble input as one who has actually sailed through the stuff.

For a start -off...loose pack ice is easy to navigate through as ling as you take the proper precautions. You can find these somewhere on the USCG Web site/
Loose pack ice of relatively shallow draft is more influenced by wind than current. However, if there are bergs entrained with it , these will be more influenced by the current and unless the wind is stronger than the current, the whole kit and caboodle will be carried by the current..
As for the ice before and after the disaster....the evidence is very clear...it did not move evry much in any direction but stayed more or less in the same place. Not only that, but we also have a very clear indication of its shape from different witnesses at different time. The following is a plot of what the "experts" have decided versus what the evidence from multiple sources tells us. Unless every single navigator was "on" something and they were all wrong. it shows very clearly that Californian could never have been 13 miles NW of the sinking Titanic . Have a look and check the evidence for yourselves.
The Impossible barrier.jpg
 
Mar 22, 2003
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So there is no doubt that if Californian was able to push through the ice had to be loose.
Besides eddies are know to form on the edges of ice fields.
7381. Can you indicate what the condition of the ice was between where you were lying and the place where the wreckage was found? - Ice-field - dense ice-field.

The field itself was more of a solid sheet of ice, not broken chunks. There probably were leads in the field in places that allowed Californian to push her way through. She was pushing aside lumps of ice that were about 2 ft high and about 10 ft deep as she cut through according to Lord. Lord actually took a risk in the morning that others were not willing to take, especially since he had no previous experience in ice. Neither Rostron nor Moore were willing to cut through the ice in that area, even where Californian came out from to get to Carpathia. Just an FYI, Californian's draft was about 23 ft on the morning of April 15th. However, if it was as loose as AlexP thinks it was, I doubt Carpathia would have gone 56 miles out her way to get around it when she left the area in the morning. In some places, the icefield was very high and impenetrable. In other places it was must have been relatively shallow for a ship the size of Californian to cut through.

1577226657008.png


Happy holidays to all.
 
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AlexP

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7381. Can you indicate what the condition of the ice was between where you were lying and the place where the wreckage was found? - Ice-field - dense ice-field.

The field itself was more of a solid sheet of ice, not broken chunks. There probably were leads in the field in places that allowed Californian to push her way through. She was pushing aside lumps of ice that were about 2 ft high and about 10 ft deep as she cut through according to Lord. Lord actually took a risk in the morning that others were not willing to take, especially since he had no previous experience in ice. Neither Rostron nor Moore were willing to cut through the ice in that area, even where Californian came out from to get to Carpathia. Just an FYI, Californian's draft was about 23 ft on the morning of April 15th. However, if it was as loose as AlexP thinks it was, I doubt Carpathia would have gone 56 miles out her way to get around it when she left the area in the morning. In some places, the icefield was very high and impenetrable. In other places it was must have been relatively shallow for a ship the size of Californian to cut through.

View attachment 45423

Happy holidays to all.
Sam, I hope that you are not suggesting that the Californian cut through pack ice full speed, using leads, do you?
7270. What rate were you going?
- I went slow. I came through the ice full speed to the ship, but I went back slow.

Besides ice could be different, you know, heavy in some places, and not so heavy in others.
I’ve discussed this with Mila. She told me that there are very strong tidal currents in the area. The tides are stronger during new and full moons. It was one day after a new moon. Tidal currents might have moved the whole ice field together with the Californian . It could have affected Californian and Titanic in different ways. I an not an oceanographer, I am not sure what exact currents were present there, but the suggestion that Titanic and Californian were drifting in different sets of current accounts for almost everything you cannot account for.
Happy holidays to you too!
 

Mike Spooner

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7381. Can you indicate what the condition of the ice was between where you were lying and the place where the wreckage was found? - Ice-field - dense ice-field.

The field itself was more of a solid sheet of ice, not broken chunks. There probably were leads in the field in places that allowed Californian to push her way through. She was pushing aside lumps of ice that were about 2 ft high and about 10 ft deep as she cut through according to Lord. Lord actually took a risk in the morning that others were not willing to take, especially since he had no previous experience in ice. Neither Rostron nor Moore were willing to cut through the ice in that area, even where Californian came out from to get to Carpathia. Just an FYI, Californian's draft was about 23 ft on the morning of April 15th. However, if it was as loose as AlexP thinks it was, I doubt Carpathia would have gone 56 miles out her way to get around it when she left the area in the morning. In some places, the icefield was very high and impenetrable. In other places it was must have been relatively shallow for a ship the size of Californian to cut through.

View attachment 45423

Happy holidays to all.
As to the icefield condition I see captain Lord took on a very wise decision by tackling the ice in clear brought day light. As at night time would of made much slower progress and fraught with dangers in damaging the ship, and if damaged would of got no thanks from his shipping company. Perhaps he should of been the captain for Titanic!
Happy Christmas to all.
 
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