The position of Stone's first "Flash" relative to the nearby vessel.


Mar 22, 2003
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Forget about just depending on Boxhall.
From 5/O Lowe's deposition:
"As I was putting over the starboard emergency boat somebody mentioned something about a ship on the port bow. I glanced in that direction and saw a steamer showing her red light about 5 miles to the northward of us.
At this time fourth officer Boxhall was firing off signals of distress, and we also Morsed to the ship by the electric Morse lamps on the bridge.
When I had got these boats tied together I still saw these in the same position, and shortly afterwards she seemed to alter her position and open her green. I knew a few minutes afterwards all the lights went out, and I did not see any more lights until I saw the lights of the Carpathia."

Someone care to explain?
 

Jim Currie

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Jim, of course I do not suggest that, and Mr. Boxhall has never testified that he saw a sidelight before he saw masthead lights.
Let us forget about the testimony he gave in England.
In the USA he clearly stated he saw the green before he saw the red.
Could you please explain what is wrong with that?
There is nothing wrong with seeing a green light before a red or vice-versa, Alex. The important fact I'm trying to get over to you is that neither of these coloured lights you are talking about... the ones seen by Boxhall...were on the Californian. Because at the time these two white lights were seen, Californian was showing a green light. She never showed her red sidelight in the direction of Titanic's signals until just before the last signal was seen by Gibson. Now do you get it?
 

AlexP

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Forget about just depending on Boxhall.
From 5/O Lowe's deposition:
"As I was putting over the starboard emergency boat somebody mentioned something about a ship on the port bow. I glanced in that direction and saw a steamer showing her red light about 5 miles to the northward of us.
At this time fourth officer Boxhall was firing off signals of distress, and we also Morsed to the ship by the electric Morse lamps on the bridge.
When I had got these boats tied together I still saw these in the same position, and shortly afterwards she seemed to alter her position and open her green. I knew a few minutes afterwards all the lights went out, and I did not see any more lights until I saw the lights of the Carpathia."

Someone care to explain?
That is why not all testimonies should be treated the same. I believe that Mr. Boxhall’s testimony is one of the most reliable because it is almost consistent with Mr. Gibson’s testimony, and the testimony of the survivors from the lifeboat #8.
 

AlexP

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There is nothing wrong with seeing a green light before a red or vice-versa, Alex. The important fact I'm trying to get over to you is that neither of these coloured lights you are talking about... the ones seen by Boxhall...were on the Californian. Because at the time these two white lights were seen, Californian was showing a green light. She never showed her red sidelight in the direction of Titanic's signals until just before the last signal was seen by Gibson. Now do you get it?
Jim, the testimony of Mr. Boxhall and Mr. Gibson more or less agree.
Mr. Boxhall saw the green light first, than he saw both sidelights together and then he saw the red one by itself.
Mr. Gibson has a similar account with some difference in the time, but why we should believe Mr. Gibson more than we believe Mr. Boxhall?
Jim, Captain Lord testified that the Californian was heading E.N.E. When he stopped her at 10:30

6709. Then you stopped and reversed engines, and what did you do then?
- I turned round and headed E.N.E. by the compass. I twisted her head to E.N.E.
Then Mr. Stone testified:

8061. If you turn round - heading W.S.W. I think you said?
- We were heading E.N.E. at the beginning of the watch and slowly turned round to W.S.W.

So before you could explain how come that the Californian that, according to you was swinging on a constant rate and in the same direction since she was stopped, ended up heading the same E.N.E. 1.5 hours after she was stopped, we should probably take Mr. Gibson’s testimony about relative bearings with caution.
 
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That is why not all testimonies should be treated the same.
The only thing that throws Lowe's account off is if he got the colors mixed up during his recollections. For example:
'As I was putting over the starboard emergency boat somebody mentioned something about a ship on the port bow. I glanced in that direction and saw a steamer showing her GREEN light about 5 miles to the northward of us.
At this time fourth officer Boxhall was firing off signals of distress, and we also Morsed to the ship by the electric Morse lamps on the bridge.
When I had got these boats tied together I still saw these in the same position, and shortly afterwards she seemed to alter her position and open her RED.'

Notice that in Lowe's actual account he has the steamer swinging in the opposite direction that Boxhall does.

Just a thought.
 

Jim Currie

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Where did common sense go? I know I'm using "windows" but really?

The claim here is that the two white steaming of lights the Californian were seen fine on Titanic's port bow at about the time the amended distress signal was sent out. Right?
The man who reported seeing these lights...Titanic's 4th Officer(what did that clown know) Joseph Boxhall said that the set of the white lights in question indicated (as they were designed to do) that if a side light had been visible at that moment, it would have been red. Right?.
Now then. I know the following little sketch is,...to say the least... rough, but perhaps one of you "experts" out there would be good enough to explain how on God's Green Earth Boxhall was seeing Californian's white masthead lights set as seen just after he sent the amended distress signal?
Common sense.jpg
 

Jim Currie

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Jim, the testimony of Mr. Boxhall and Mr. Gibson more or less agree.
Mr. Boxhall saw the green light first, than he saw both sidelights together and then he saw the red one by itself.
Mr. Gibson has a similar account with some difference in the time, but why we should believe Mr. Gibson more than we believe Mr. Boxhall?
Jim, Captain Lord testified that the Californian was heading E.N.E. When he stopped her at 10:30

6709. Then you stopped and reversed engines, and what did you do then?
- I turned round and headed E.N.E. by the compass. I twisted her head to E.N.E.
Then Mr. Stone testified:

8061. If you turn round - heading W.S.W. I think you said?
- We were heading E.N.E. at the beginning of the watch and slowly turned round to W.S.W.

So before you could explain how come that the Californian that, according to you was swinging on a constant rate and in the same direction since she was stopped, ended up heading the same E.N.E. 1.5 hours after she was stopped, we should probably take Mr. Gibson’s testimony about relative bearings with caution.
I find it hard to keep up with you, Alex. But I'll try.

Gibson used beam bearings to indicate events.

From port beam around the bow to the starboard beam or vice-versa it is exactly 180 degree. It follows that if something bears SSE when abeam to Starboard at 12-15 am, and the same or nearly the same "something" has never moved from more or less the same spot.is bearing SSE and is abeam to port 3 hours later at 3-15 am, then in 180 minutes, the ships bow swung around exactly 180 degrees or 1 degree a minute... give or take a fraction or three.
During that swing time there was absolutely no wind...it was flat, glassy calm. However. we are told that the wind began to rise from the north around 3-30 am.. Any sailing man will tell you that in such conditions as were at the time, the wind usually starts to rise gently just before the crack of dawn. Thereafter, depending on the air profile of a floating body, it will respond to the wind and the behaviour of the bow changes.

In fact, Gibson is one of the best witnesses as to direction that we have. Because he refers events relative to the bow or beam and since we know the colour of the lights being shown on each side, we get a very good indication of direction from him

What we know for sure is that the 7 positively identified signals seen low on the horizon by Stone and Gibson were from the Titanic and that during the time these were being seen, Californian was pointing her green light in the direction of the first 6 and her red one in the direction of the 7th and final one in that series.
 

AlexP

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Jim, Once again, in the USA Mr. Boxhall testified he saw the green sidelight first, then both sidelights and then the red one.
Here's what he saw:
1582651840052.png


Now please tell me what a captain would have changed the course as the one pictured in the middle of the night in the ice infested waters on his own will. The Californian was swinging. Her change of course (heading) was caused by some natural forces, no man's power was involved.
Therefore, there is no doubt Mr. Boxhall saw the Californian.
And I am still waiting for your explanation in regards to the Californian E.N.E. heading at 10:30 pm. on April 14 and at 12:15 am on April 15.
 
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Jim Currie

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There is no point in continuing this nonsense, Alkex, The most polite reply I can think of at the moment is that if you do not understand the theory behind the arrangement and concept of "Range Lights, you are plainly out of your depth and have no idea what you are talking about

As for why a captain should suddenly alter course... try this for size and remember that both Rostron and Moore did exactly the same thing/

Ice a head.jpg
 

Jim Currie

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Forget about just depending on Boxhall.
From 5/O Lowe's deposition:
"As I was putting over the starboard emergency boat somebody mentioned something about a ship on the port bow. I glanced in that direction and saw a steamer showing her red light about 5 miles to the northward of us.
At this time fourth officer Boxhall was firing off signals of distress, and we also Morsed to the ship by the electric Morse lamps on the bridge.
When I had got these boats tied together I still saw these in the same position, and shortly afterwards she seemed to alter her position and open her green. I knew a few minutes afterwards all the lights went out, and I did not see any more lights until I saw the lights of the Carpathia."

Someone care to explain?

There is , of course, a perfectly unacceptable explanation (to you). There were two ships seen by Lowe.
The first showing the red at or near to 00-45 am on Californian was not to the north, but to the west and on the far side of the ice. At that time Californian was showing a green in the direction of the sinking Titanic.

The second was the one seen by Rostron on Carpathia. She was seen by him tom the east of the pack ice and showing a red side light. Probably the same red side light as seen by AB William Lucas who was in collapsible D, the one taken in tow by Lowe. He saw his red light way out in the direction of where Titanic''s starboard quarter had been.

1: How did Lowe know he was looking to the North?

2: Since emergency boat 1 was launched at about 12-53 am Californian time, and the first signals were seen forward of Californian's starboard bow before that, what ship was showing a red light to Lowe? It certainly wasn't the Californian
 

AlexP

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There is no point in continuing this nonsense, Alkex, The most polite reply I can think of at the moment is that if you do not understand the theory behind the arrangement and concept of "Range Lights, you are plainly out of your depth and have no idea what you are talking about

As for why a captain should suddenly alter course... try this for size and remember that both Rostron and Moore did exactly the same thing/

View attachment 48062
Yeah, right, except Mr. Boxhall testified a few times that the steamer he was watching was meeting them. The one in your interpretation was 6 - 7 miles to the west of the Titanic. No, Jim, Mr. Boxhall was watching the Californian, and I am getting tired of your constant expression of superiority. Of course you are a professional Mariner, and I am not, but you are ignoring the inconvenient questions, and repeating over and over again that Mr. Boxhall saw the red light first, although I clearly showed to you it was a mistake.
 

Jim Currie

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He saw a white light first, then two white lights, then the coloured lights through the glasses and eventually the red one with the naked eye...read the evidence properly. Even a "ship of the desert" can understand that. Bi Bi
 

AlexP

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Of course he saw masthead lights first. The question is what sidelight he saw first after he saw masthead lights, and it was the green one. He saw the Californian.
 

Paul Slish

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Hello Paul,

I am very pleased to see you posting again on here.

I have made a particular study of every single post you have made on here, as firstly you made a particular contribution about the Parisian and a particular contribution about The Californian's cargo, and secondly you have always been most courteous and open and objective in your posts.

We are in difficulties in dealing with lots of current threads on The Californian, and discussion of Sam's new book etc.

Paul, I think you will find Sam's new book of considerable interest.

I do hope you will participate again as fully as you have done so in the past.

As an bit of an aside, I seem from memory to recall a reference by you to having a recording on disc of the Captain lord 1961 taped interview transcripts... if my memory is correct I would be very interested if you could make a copy available to me.

Cheers,
Julian
Greetings Julian, Yes it has been several years since I posted. I have a first generation copy of Captain Lord's February 1961 interview on cassette tape. It was given by the late Leslie Harrison to another gentleman (who has since also died) who in turn gave it to me. I did have it copied onto a CD but sadly there is a gap on the CD, and the CD is not as good quality as the cassette tape. I'm working on a transcript of the entire recording.
 
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Julian Atkins

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Hello Paul,

Can you play the cassette tape of the 1961 on to something like youtube? And then let us have the link. Senan Moloney has provided the transcripts on here. Lots of us are very keen to hear Captain Lord's voice and how he reacted to Leslie Harrison's questions and his tone etc, and also whether the published transcripts are accurate.

You would do a great service to those of us interested in 'The Californian Incident' if we could hear Captain Lord speaking in those 2 1961 interviews!

With best wishes,

Julian
 

Paul Slish

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Hi, My transcript is completely literal with every "oh" "Uh" "hmm" etc. included. There were a few words and brief phrases that were unintelligible to me and I marked them such in the transcript. I don't think any of that was significant. I had originally had it as H: when Harrison spoke, and L: when Lord spoke. What I am doing now is changing it to regular font for Harrison and bold font for Lord. It conveys the natural conversation that it was better in my opinion. It is 26 pages long and it will take me a while to finish it with everything else going on. A number of years have passed since I had it copied to a CD. I think I'll look for a place that can do a high quality job of transferring it to a digital audio format.
 

Paul Slish

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Of course he saw masthead lights first. The question is what sidelight he saw first after he saw masthead lights, and it was the green one. He saw the Californian.
I think the most anyone can definitively say is that he believes the evidence points to this or that conclusion. I'm not the slightest convinced that Boxhall was viewing the Californian.