The position of Stone's first "Flash" relative to the nearby vessel.


AlexP

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No, haze had nothing to do with it, Nor did any mysterious mirage effect.
Sound does not bend around the curve of the earth...it travels in a straight line. It is emitted at the moment when the rocket reaches it's maximum altitude. If Beesley saw a flash and heard a boom but no descending stars, then he was seeing that rocket at absolute maximum range from a lifeboat which means it originated about 20 to 23 miles from his position in the lifeboat.
Carpathia fired her first signal when she was 20 miles away from the survivors and arrived there at 4 am. So Beesley was probably reporting the first rocket seen and Stone and Co were reporting the ones fired 45 minutes later when Carpathia was a mere 9 or so miles from him.
I am sure mirage has nothing to do with this. There are another natural phenomena but haze and/or mirage.
However, I believe that Mr. Beesley saw one of the flashes reported by Mr. Gibson.
I doubt he would have heard the sound otherwise.
 

Jim Currie

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Really? I was simply presenting the evidence from the inquiry record BI 6821-6823. The statement I posted between >>... << was a from Steven, and I was correcting him by showing what Lord stated at the enquiry. It was Lord who said his stopped overnight position was 32 miles (nautical miles Steven) from where he left the wreckage and left the impression with Senator Smith that that was where he believed Titanic struck the iceberg, not at the SOS position given to him by Virginian, but where the wreckage was found Monday morning.

And then I gave some specific factual distances:
Lord claimed his vessel was at 42-05, 50-07 and the wreckage was at 41-33, 50-01. The straight line distance between those two locations is 32.3 nautical miles. What's rubbish about that? The distance from his alleged overnight position and the SOS position (41-46, 50-14) is 19.7 miles. What's rubbish about that? The distance from his alleged overnight position to the Titanic wreck (41-43.5, 49-56.8) is 22.8 miles. What's rubbish about that? All factual statements.

By the way, the reported area of the observed wreckage, which included overturned collapsible boat B, was 11 nautical miles bearing 196° true from the wreck site. The drift time was 9 hours and 15 minutes based on what was reported from Californian.
On April 20th, the bulk of the main wreckage including Boat B and 150 to 200 bodies was found at a position which was almost 40 miles NE of where Lord said he left "wreckage". That means that according to you, (and Lord) the main wreckage was transported south until it arrived at 41-33 North then it miraculously headed North East across a south setting current before coming to a halt for a couple of more days. It did not progress much more to the east between April 20 and April 23. Perhaps it found a way of avoiding this south setting current? Much like the SS Almerian, about which, you wrote:
"Almerian’s position at local apparent noon April 15, 41° 51’N, 50° 00’W, shows that the ship had averaged about 6.3 knots between her 8:38am position (at 12:00 GMT) and her noontime position (at 15:20 GMT). This is about the same speed she averaged heading northward after departing her overnight stopped position. "
Just how did that vessel maintain such a speed against a current setting southward at 1.2 knots? And just how did she manage to avoid meeting a SE to NW running wall of ice, 5 miles wide, in the process of doing so.?
Come to think of it, How did Californian maintain her westerly course after leaving the pack ice without being set southward?
Was one Mila's mysterious "Swirls" to blame in all cases?
 

AlexP

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Was one Mila's mysterious "Swirls" to blame in all cases?
Jim, please take a look at Figure 7 of this report


These mysterious “Swirls” as you call them are very, very common in this area most of all when the ice is present.
Even in the same eddy the currents differ and differ a lot. The farther away from the middle the stronger the currents. Warm core eddies will try to push a drifting object out. It could be picked up by another eddy, and change the drift direction and the speed. In addition the currents in the are are constantly changing. There are so many small features in that area that IIP cannot even put these on their drift models.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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At no time does Stone refer to what he saw at 3-20 am as "rockets"
OK, so your explanation is this: Stone did not see Carpathia's rockets at 3:20am. What he saw at 3:20am were 2 flashes of light right on the horizon in the SSW and a little distance apart. I get it.

You still haven't answered my question as to when did the bearing to the Californian's mystery steamer really start to change?According Lord, unless he was lying, he was told about that when Stone called down the speaking tube at 1:10.
 

AlexP

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Why will I guess? I know. The rotation speed of these warm core eddies could be up to 200 cm/sec. and yes they are big, smaller ones are not seen on satellite images. Besides as I said above a drifting object could change the eddies.
 

Jim Currie

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Jim, please take a look at Figure 7 of this report


These mysterious “Swirls” as you call them are very, very common in this area most of all when the ice is present.
Even in the same eddy the currents differ and differ a lot. The farther away from the middle the stronger the currents. Warm core eddies will try to push a drifting object out. It could be picked up by another eddy, and change the drift direction and the speed. In addition the currents in the are are constantly changing. There are so many small features in that area that IIP cannot even put these on their drift models.
True, But in all cases. vessels in the same system would be carried in a clock-wise direction around the center. Thus, if the speed of the current was fairly constant around the "rim" , then the relative bearing between, say Titanic in the southern "rim" and Californian on the northern rim would never change.
I.e. If Californian was ahead of Titanic at Midnight, she would still be ahead of her when she sank. The relative bearing would not change appreciably from fine on the port bow to 2 points on the port.
If they were in adjacent systems. then the relative bearings would widen rapidly and Californian would have been on Titanic's port beam before the latter sank.
Back to the "drawing board" I think...Mila.

By the way, on the very many occasions I have sailed in that area, on my way to and from New York and the Eastern Seaboard, I have never been in a vessel which noticeably experienced any external influences other than the Gulf Stream and its easterly extensions or the normally prevailing SW'y weather systems. Now why do you suppose that was? Before you say "Ah! But you were always moving... no we were not and if there were any such influences to be experienced, they would be recorded on the N. Atlantic Pilot Chart...they are not
 

AlexP

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Here's is only one possible scenario:
1576250710460.png

Let's say that the Titanic is on the right hand side of the right warm core eddy and she is drifting towards Californian.
Warm core eddies will push the drifting objects out. So, Titanic is pushed out, picked up by another eddy and now she is drifting SSW or whatever depends on the position and the shape of an eddy. Californian is somewhere in between these eddies and is not affected by the currents or probably drifting in her own relatively small cold-core eddy, first meeting the Titanic, and later getting NW away from her.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Jim, speaking about painful horses, you still haven't replied to my question in post #165 above. In case you missed it:
When did the bearing to the Californian's mystery steamer really start to change? According Lord, unless he was lying at both inquiries, he was told about that when Stone called down the speaking tube at 1:10am.

You also pointed out that Stone never referred to the signals at 3:20am as rockets. OK, so what were those two signals that he saw to the SSW and a little distance apart at that time?

Here's is only one possible scenario:
Alex, you keep on creating these descriptive hypothetical cases of what might have been, but you still have not been able to quantify any of this to show how they could result in the various reported events such as the change in bearings reported by Stone, or the approach and recession of the vessel seen from Titanic. At least the mystery ship hypothesis can do that by having the mystery vessel move under steam in whatever direction is needed, and at whatever speed is needed, to produce whatever result you need, in whatever time frame you need it in.
 

Jim Currie

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OK, so your explanation is this: Stone did not see Carpathia's rockets at 3:20am. What he saw at 3:20am were 2 flashes of light right on the horizon in the SSW and a little distance apart. I get it.

You still haven't answered my question as to when did the bearing to the Californian's mystery steamer really start to change?According Lord, unless he was lying, he was told about that when Stone called down the speaking tube at 1:10.
You never cease to amaze, me Sam!

I did not "explain" anything to you, I simply pointed out what Stone described seeing. Unlike you, I try not to put words in the mouths of witnesses. Next thing you''ll be wanting to know is why Stone did not give the exact feet and inched "apart" .

As for answering your questions? Try it yourself. I can't actually remember you ever answering a straight question about anything. However we won't fall out about that.
 

AlexP

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Alex, you keep on creating these descriptive hypothetical cases of what might have been, but you still have not been able to quantify any of this to show how they could result in the various reported events such as the change in bearings reported by Stone, or the approach and recession of the vessel seen from Titanic. At least the mystery ship hypothesis can do that by having the mystery vessel move under steam in whatever direction is needed, and at whatever speed is needed, to produce whatever result you need, in whatever time frame you need it in.
It appears that at around 1:20 a.m. Titanic’s time the Californian and the Titanic made the closest approach. Maybe at that time the Titanic was directly south of the Californian. Then while Titanic changed the eddy and started drifting south towards SSW, the Californian was moving ENE. A little bit later Mr. Boxhall lost sight of the Californian because she was no longer visible from the port, but instead was seen from the starboard. He simply was looking for her in a wrong direction. I know somebody testified that the Californian moved two points or so on the port side of the Titanic and you interpreted it as a proof that the Titanic was swinging , but this testimony is not confirmed by any other witness. If you ask more specific questions it will be easier to address it. But let me please ask you a question. What lights Mr. Gibson saw at 3:20 a.m.? And please try to respond it without responding it with another question.
 
Mar 22, 2003
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You never cease to amaze, me Sam!
I'm glad you find me amazing Jim. The feeling is mutual.
I simply pointed out what Stone described seeing.
Of course you did, as if we can't read what he wrote ourselves. But did you point that out to suggest that the lights seen at 3:20 by Stone in the SSW might have been the lights of the vessel seen around 4am by Stone and Stewart? What was the point of all that?
What lights Mr. Gibson saw at 3:20 a.m.? And please try to respond it without responding it with another question.
The rockets from Carpathia.
 

AlexP

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The rockets from Carpathia.
Not this is a direct answer, which however begs more questions.
Why in a world Carpathia would have fired 3 rockets in a row, most of all if their light impaired the lookouts vision?
Why nobody from the survivors reported seeing 3 Carpathia’s rockets in a row?
How Mr. Gibson and Mr. Stone could have missed that Californian turned back and forth for 22 degrees in dead calm weather or even if by that time there was small wind.

See, Sam, there is no evidence to support your allegation. In fact, there is evidence that confronts it. I mean Mr. Stengel who saw one rocket, green flare and Carpathia’s Roman candle at the same time Mr Gibson saw three distant flashes with different bearings .
 
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Mar 22, 2003
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A little bit later Mr. Boxhall lost sight of the Californian because she was no longer visible from the port, but instead was seen from the starboard. He simply was looking for her in a wrong direction. I know somebody testified that the Californian moved two points or so on the port side of the Titanic and you interpreted it as a proof that the Titanic was swinging , but this testimony is not confirmed by any other witness.
Boxhall always maintained that the steamer he was looking at was off the port bow of Titanic. he said he lost sight of the steamer after his boat went round Titanic's stern and came up the starboard side, which makes sense since the hull of the ship would have blocked his view until Titanic foundered, which was about 1/2 hour after he left in the boat from the port side. When the last socket signal was fired, the steamer was reported about 2 points on the port bow of Titanic. From the bridge of the ship you pretty much could see across a wide arc for someone out on the bridge wing. It would be quite difficult Alex to lose sight of an object if it crossed the bow from the port side to the starboard side.
1576264858602.png
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Not this is a direct answer, which however begs more questions.
Huh? You asked for a direct answer. I gave it.
Why in a world Carpathia would have fired 3 rockets in a row, most of all if their light impaired the lookouts vision?
Rostron: "In the meantime I had been firing rockets and the Company’s signals every time we saw this green light again."
Why nobody from the survivors reported seeing 3 Carpathia’s rockets in a row?
The absence of evidence is not evidence Alex. Why, for example, did Gibson see three but Stone saw only two? Boxhall only mentioned about Carpathia's rockets when he was asked if he saw any. There were a lot of other people in his boat with him who never said a thing about seeing or hearing rockets.
 

AlexP

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Boxhall always maintained that the steamer he was looking at was off the port bow of Titanic. he said he lost sight of the steamer after his boat went round Titanic's stern and came up the starboard side, which makes sense since the hull of the ship would have blocked his view until Titanic foundered, which was about 1/2 hour after he left in the boat from the port side. When the last socket signal was fired, the steamer was reported about 2 points on the port bow of Titanic. From the bridge of the ship you pretty much could see across a wide arc for someone out on the bridge wing. It would be quite difficult Alex to lose sight of an object if it crossed the bow from the port side to the starboard side.
View attachment 45358
Mr. Boxhall testified that at some point he saw the stern light. Let us assume that the sidelight went below his horizon, but what happened to the second masthead light?
 

AlexP

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Huh? You asked for a direct answer. I gave it.

Rostron: "In the meantime I had been firing rockets and the Company’s signals every time we saw this green light again."

The absence of evidence is not evidence Alex. Why, for example, did Gibson see three but Stone saw only two? Boxhall only mentioned about Carpathia's rockets when he was asked if he saw any. There were a lot of other people in his boat with him who never said a thing about seeing or hearing rockets.
I meant you did give a direct answer and I was not sarcastic.

Ok so this time you have chosen to believe Captain Rostron because it suits the narrative, but you do not believe him on the time he saw the first green flare.

But how come that Mr. Stengel saw one Carpathia’s rocket, Mr. Boxhall’s green flare and Carpathia’s Roman candle at the same time Mr Gibson saw three distant flashes with different bearings?
And what will you do with the fact that Captain Rostron said at the US Inquiry that he - "Ordered company's rockets to be fired at 2:45 a.m. and every quarter of an hour after to reassure Titanic.", which makes much more sense.
 
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